ORTF or Spaced Pair for recording small choir with piano accompaniment

[joelpatterson]

Are you going to be singing for the performance? I mean-- are you going to set up the gear and then run it by remote control, as it were?

I'd say your instincts are excellent, ORTF over the conductor's head and a ribbon right on the piano is a tried/true approach that invariably works well (on the theory that what the conductor hears is hopefully not too radically different than what the music is supposed to sound like) and (ribbons are great just outside the crook of the open/semi open piano lid).

Fine tuning the gain is one of the little nuances that serves to optimize the whole ordeal, though... be sure you get a long and drawn out sound check, to give yourself an opportunity to do this, jiggle the mic placement, do all that you can to optimize the gear. Good luck!

[hbphotoav]

Ditto what Joel said... with the caveat that the position ("critical distance") and height of the KM140 pair will be the main issue. Too close and low, the image will be too wide and will emphasize singers closer to the mic array. Too high and too far back will narrow the image and will pick up too much room. There are papers about critical distance to read, but if this is a non-critical learning experience, I'd start with the mic 3'/1m taller than the conductor, and positioned as equidistant as possible from the arc of singers. The size (width) of the group will largely determine that distance.

Good luck! Post a clip or two...

HB

[Piedpiper]

double ditto... with the emphasis on getting it right with the ORTF pair and using the piano spot and ambience mic only if absolutely necessary. If your placement is good, you should be fine without them and since it's not so critical a situation, I would personally just go with the pair since any deviation from an ideal balance is liable to be small with sufficient soundcheck. Also, if the group is small, you may want to error on the side of distant/more room verb if you want the group to sound bigger than it actually is, but amount of verb is always a personal choice regardless of the size of the choir. I wouldn't bother with theoretical calculations so much as doing what sounds good to you and your client.

[king2070lplaya]

You might try to use both the SE and ribbon on the piano in MS, that way youve got 1 good stereo spot instead of 2 mono spots, which typically don't blend well for this type of recording.

ORTF will work well as your main pickup and maximize the room a bit more than an AB spaced pair would, so you really shoyldnt need much in the way of an ambience mic

[tourtelot]

Why does ORTF become the "go-to" in every situation that I walk into where there are a lot of variables that I have yet to hear? Because it works. Amazingly versatile pair. Not to say that after I know the performers and the space that I can't up the level of the recordings with a different approach, but if I have to put something up and expect it to produce a good result, ORTF seems a good choice.

FWIW, I have been using a Blumlein pair on choir and accompaniment lately. I use the Royer SF-12 stereo ribbon and it sounds wonderful on mixed voices.

D.

[Tom McC]

Keep it simple. I'd opt for ORTF with no spot miking at all on that (accompanying) piano, which is likely at the front. But at least keep any spots on separate tracks, not baked into the mix.

To ensure that no section dominates, place the mics behind and above the conductor, with the choir in a gentle arc, not an extreme U-bend, with the choir rows on risers to allow the mics to see every face. And aim the mics at the rear row singers. Typically the choir edges might subtend an angle of ca. 80 - 90 deg to the mic array. Allow yourself time to tweak things for a pleasing direct/reverb ratio..but if it's too dry you can 'fix it in post' :-).

[zypod]

Thank you everyone this has been a great help.
Firstly yes my plan was to sing in the performance as well so I'd have a sound check then press record and run over. I'm interested in the M/S spot for the piano although i've never used a M/S spot in this application before so I wouldn't know how I would mix it. I was thinking of setting up the ORTF pair first then seeing if I needed an ambience mic or if I should just use the cm47 and ribbon on the piano.

I will post some audio clips next week

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by zypod

Thank you everyone this has been a great help.
Firstly yes my plan was to sing in the performance as well so I'd have a sound check then press record and run over. I'm interested in the M/S spot for the piano although i've never used a M/S spot in this application before so I wouldn't know how I would mix it. I was thinking of setting up the ORTF pair first then seeing if I needed an ambience mic or if I should just use the cm47 and ribbon on the piano.

I will post some audio clips next week

Just remember that for purity and thus clarity, both of image and intelligibility, less is more. Every time you put up another mic you confuse the phase and the image. ORTF by itself is definitely the ideal. If you can put a small head sized baffle between the mics, you'll take care of the undesirable phase issues generated by the distance between the ORTF pair by shadowing the frequencies shorter than that distance.

[zypod]

Oh yeah and the plan was to record onto 4 separate tracks so I can have more option during post production

[zypod]

slight change of plan, today my 2 cm3's arrived in the mail so instead I was thinking of using the cm3's and the km140's in ORTF and compare the results.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by zypod

slight change of plan, today my 2 cm3's arrived in the mail so instead I was thinking of using the cm3's and the km140's in ORTF and compare the results.

The CM3's are not cards and a few folks have had trouble with the ORTF array for them. The NOS seems to have worked better. The CM3's seem to need a wider spacing.

[polytope]

Originally Posted by boojum

The CM3's are not cards and a few folks have had trouble with the ORTF array for them. The NOS seems to have worked better. The CM3's seem to need a wider spacing.

Agreed.

[zypod]

right thanks for the tip

[king2070lplaya]

I'd still go with the KM's, man. The cm3 are nice, I use them all the time, but they aren't Neumann's.

[hbphotoav]

Sabra-Som makes a nice 30cm bar, with four attachment devices for mics, for about $50. I use one often with a pair of MKH8040s usually in a 17-20cm 90-degree array, and a pair of Gefell M296s in a 35cm (or so) angled A/B, with the caps aligned, and blend the result as the situation warrants. The bar is not the most robust design on the market, but I've schlepped mine all over the world for 5 or 6 years with no problems. SABRA-SOM ST4 4 Mic Bar | Full Compass

It would be interesting to hear a side-by-side of the two pairs from your gig. And you'll likely find the bar useful in other situations as well. I bought the first 30cm rig to do a Blumlein with a pair of Cascade Fat Heads. Worked like a charm. Weighs next to nothing... which matters these days if one flies internationally...

HB

[zypod]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Sabra-Som makes a nice 30cm bar, with four attachment devices for mics, for about $50. I use one often with a pair of MKH8040s usually in a 17-20cm 90-degree array, and a pair of Gefell M296s in a 35cm (or so) angled A/B, with the caps aligned, and blend the result as the situation warrants. The bar is not the most robust design on the market, but I've schlepped mine all over the world for 5 or 6 years with no problems. SABRA-SOM ST4 4 Mic Bar | Full Compass

It would be interesting to hear a side-by-side of the two pairs from your gig. And you'll likely find the bar useful in other situations as well. I bought the first 30cm rig to do a Blumlein with a pair of Cascade Fat Heads. Worked like a charm. Weighs next to nothing... which matters these days if one flies internationally...

HB

This would be great, unfortunately I live in Australia and probably won't be able to get one by Monday, but i'll probably get one soon for the future.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by zypod

This would be great, unfortunately I live in Australia and probably won't be able to get one by Monday, but i'll probably get one soon for the future.

You could also make one using a bit of flat, 1/8" aluminum bar (1/8"x1"... I buy them at home improvement stores), a drill, and a 1/4x20 tap bit set. Cut the bar to 40 or 65cm, measure carefully and drill holes for the center (Manfrotto lighting stands are usually topped with 1/4x20 studs); tap them for 1/4x20 threaded bolts; get some 1/4x20-to-3/8 bushings (photo stores will have them) and some 1/4x20 split-ring washers, and for $15 and a couple of hours you can have a workable multi-mic stereo bar. If you want to hang anything but SDCs, buy a heavier bar stock. I've made a couple for "purpose-built" jobs... but find the Sabra-Som good for any combinations of SDC and TLM193 I might come up with (out to 30cm), so the "ugly boys" usually stay home.

HB

[Plush]

I would recommend your good 140 cardioids in NOS position. This is using them on an AKG stereo bar at 90 degrees.

Experiment moving them closer and farther to capture a good stereo picture.

Start with just these two super high quality mics.

[rty]

I need a recording of a choir singing Parry's 'Jerusalem' a cappella. It's unison voices, so not loads of part learning involved. Maybe a college project or local choir? Would anyone be interested in recording a choir? If so please contact me at jamj1163@gmail.com

[jbjoubaud]

Originally Posted by rty

I need a recording of a choir singing Parry's 'Jerusalem' a cappella. It's unison voices, so not loads of part learning involved. Maybe a college project or local choir? Would anyone be interested in recording a choir? If so please contact me at jamj1163@gmail.com

How about you tells us where the gig is going to be before we get all excited ?

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by jbjoubaud

How about you tells us where the gig is going to be before we get all excited ?

It appears that he's looking for someone to arrange to record a choir local to them, that would learn the piece specially.

To the OP: How large a choir are you looking for?