Coles 4038 - do I need two of them?

[doorknocker]

Well,

I know what the Slutty answer will be, obviously a pair of these would be a beautiful thing but as I decided to make this my next mic purchase, there are a few questions:

- How important are matched pairs of 4038s? Any drawbacks with buying one now and adding a second one in the hopefully financially more prosperous future?

- Everybody talks about the 4038 being great as a mono drum OH, but what about stereo? I often use Beyer M160s in 'Recorderman', are the 4038s good for this? A single 4038 could be an addition to the M160s I guess......

Thanks for any advice!

[Fletcher]

IMNTLBFHO, the whole "matched pair" thing is a nearly total crock of shit. If the two mics are close they'll be fine, if their response is all over the map then yes, they should be matched to some extent... but more often than not, most "matching" is some mook at the local Banjo Mart telling people that two TLM-103's are "matched" because they have consecutive serial numbers[!!!].

There are several levels of "matching" that can occur... matching for "similar" response is a hell of a lot more important than matching for "exact" response [again, my opinion... YMMV].

I would encourage you to take this with a grain of salt, but I have found in my work that microphones with slight differences will give me the net result of sounding "larger" [which is why I often use dissimilar overheads on things like drum kits].

The slutty answer would be to get a pair of 4038's... but my take on it is that you'll probably be way better off with a 4040 or a Crowley and Tripp "Proscenium".

Best of luck with your search.

[Sput]

I have to agree there. I have a matched pair of AKG 414 and a matched pair of neumann MK184. They both work fine as overheads, but I also had good results with Neumann 147 + u 87 + 414 (3 OH configuration), or even mixing large and small diaphragm can lead to nice sounding textures.

J.

[rsolinski]

Know what the least matched pair of things in any studio is?... THE HUMAN EAR
Don't believe me..ask your Doc...

Cheers,
Ray

[doorknocker]

Fletcher,

what is it that you don't like about the 4038?

I understand that the 4040 is advertised as '4038 and then some' but that's exactly what I'm wondering about.

Wasn't say the Neumann KM 184 also introduced as 'KM 84 and then some' originally while time has proven that most folks prefer the 'flatter' 84s?

The logical thing would be trying out both in my own emporium but unfortunately that's not so easy to do here in Europe - unless you're filthy rich and/or ready to pay outrageous prices for gear in general.

[Fletcher]

I love the 4038... I just think the 4040 has a little more to love about it than the 4038. The top on the 4040 goes up an extra octave or two which I find gives me a very similar result as I would achieve with a 4038 and like 2db of 10kHz shelving equalizer... without the equalizer. In my world, the shorter the signal path the happier I am... so, if I can get the same kind of tone from a mic wihtout adding an equalizer to the chain then I will generally prefer that mic to one where I often feel compelled to add an equalizer.

As always, YMMV.

[xj32]

Wow this is the second time in 2 days I have heard someone recomend a 4040 over the 4038.

Must look into this...

[Vari-Mu]

The 4040 is a lovely sound. However the rolloff on the 4038 is one of the reasons I like them on drums/ percussion.

A lot of the stuff i like was recorded with those Altec salt shakers on drums which start to roll off at what, 12k?

I think the rolloff is also one of the things that make it a good trumpet mic also.

Cheers

Vari-Mu

[MBishopSFX]

A pair of 4038s - YES.

Matched? Not really neccessary.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by xj32

Wow this is the second time in 2 days I have heard someone recomend a 4040 over the 4038.

Must look into this...

I say it all the time... well... what I say is I have not tried the 4038 but the 4040 is a glorious mic that anyone thinking of buying a ribbon should try.

As far as the matched pair thing, I lean more in the Fletcher camp here. I am using my 4040 and the back side of a R121 for drum over heads and I love it LOVE love love it. The 4040 on the hat side and the R121 on the ride side.

I don't think the matched pair thing is all that important for rock and roll. Maybe for Classical or 2 mic jazz recording but not in most pop / rock / country / etc styles.

[drBill]

I always try to buy mics in pairs these days if I can possibly afford it. Why? Cause if I only buy one, I end up spending money on other stuff and I end up wishing I had the pair. Then the company comes out with a "newer, better" (LOL) model and then I have to search for a used clean one to match my original mic cause they are no longer made. Like Fletcher, I wouldn't be so concerned about a "matched" pair. And I don't think Coles is about to change the 4038 anytime soon, but you never know. I'm stoked, cause I finally found a match for one of my 414's and now I have a pair. Not my most used mic, but having a pair is very useful at times.

[blackbox]

imho, ya gotta get two of them. you're going to love them. you're going to want to use them on everything. and you're going to want to track some things in stereo like overheads, room mics, piano, etc. ( damn, they sound ridiculously amazing on a grand piano thru a couple of 1073's. Unbelievable)

[seaneldon]

i'm a big fan of coles 4038s and have been for a few years. it was semi-recently that i heard my first 4040 and i can say that i thought to myself that i'd probably use it over the 4038 for almost anything. if you need stuff extremely dark with a "screen door" effect on the high end, the 4038 might be a great mic (or two) for you, especially if you've got the beyer m160s already, which are a relatively bright and crisp ribbon.

[warhead]

In the world of ribbons I find the AEA R84 to be a nicer ribbon to have all around. Like most ribbons it will take EQ like a champ, but the R84 always sounds better to my ears to start with. Handles high SPL better (I've had to turn down amps to record them with a 4038) and has a smoother more extended top end as well. The front / rear combination of available sounds is excellent too, both sides offering distinctly different and amazingly useful sounds.

It's even better looking (to me anyhow). Oops, it costs less also.

You said any advice welcome...

War

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by warhead

It's even better looking (to me anyhow). Oops, it costs less also.

You said any advice welcome...

Yes. I was afraid to admit it myself: I really don't like the look of the 4040, the 4038 is so much 'vibier/vintage' looking.
Shouldn't be a factor, I know but it is.


seaneldon,

Interesting note about the M160 being 'relatively bright and crisp'. I really love the M160s as my main drum OHs so I wonder if a single Coles 4038 would be a nice alternative for mono OH or as a single room mic rather than a stereo alternative for the M160s (which I use mostly in 'Recorderman')?

Has anyboby actuallly prefered the 4038 over the 4040 and if yes why?

[RoundBadge]

I got loads of different ribbons..
The 4038 are one of my all time fav';s for drum ovheads..especially if going straight to digital..thick chocolate..
With a good comp and a tad of hi shelf ..sometimes it's just perfect for certian tracks..
sometimes just the OVHD pair and a kick mic are the only tracks used in the mix

[alnico]

4038 Duo? YES SIR stike

[drBill]

Originally Posted by blackbox

imho, ya gotta get two of them. you're going to love them. you're going to want to use them on everything. and you're going to want to track some things in stereo like overheads, room mics, piano, etc. ( damn, they sound ridiculously amazing on a grand piano thru a couple of 1073's. Unbelievable)

Agreed, I've recorded 2 "new-age" solo piano albums with them that have gotten rave reviews as to the "beautiful, natural sound".

[Steffmo]

I recorded Ahmad Jamal in his living room (where he had 2 nine foot Steinways, btw).

2 4338s in Blumlein at the bout into an ISA 115. Was a magic moment for me.

One of the great mics, but i agree with Fletcher, you really need the EQ for a vocal. If you NEED the Eq, its probably the wrong mic.

If I'm not using them on overheads, its because they are in a pair in front of the drums.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

A pair of 4038s - YES.

Matched? Not really neccessary.

One 4038 beats a pair of just about anything else, in my book.

I dig mono overheads.

[T.RayBullard]

4040..glorious microphone..my pair is one of my best purchases ever..

Coles 4040 examples


these are the clips that got me really interested in them..

http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/misc/...lips/clip1.mp3
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/misc/...lips/clip2.mp3
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/misc/...lips/clip3.mp3
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/misc/...lips/clip4.mp3
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/misc/guitarintro.wav
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/misc/midside_1.wav

[84K]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Coles 4038 - do I need two of them?

If you record drums, then YES. I don't care if they are matched or not. 2 is the shepard's stew.

[Grizzly]

I usally like to set my 2 4038 in front of the kit (cymbals height) and later mix them to taste along with the 2 overheads condenser mics (whatever they are) - soft and wide, works great to me !...

Haven't tried the 4040 though...

Olivier.

[picksail]

The 4038 is probably my favorite drummer's "crotch" mic.

I would have to agree with Fletcher regarding the whole 'matched pair' phenomenon.

How many engineers actually perceive a drum kit as a single stereo instrument? At least in contemporary rock music. I mean, I get the point of capturing a stereo 'picture' of the kit, but come on... I don't mix that way.
The mix isn't about, "Now featuring the super-stellar-drum sound-we have all only dreamed of".

It amazes me just how much extraneous work goes into cutting an album, only to discover that the bottom snare mic some engineer painstakingly positioned, is now removed completely from the mix. That goes for toms, hi-hat, room, minimal overheads, etc. And that's just the drum kit. Imagine what happens to the multi-miced acoustic guitar.

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

the 4038 is a classic and has all the 'old skool' vibe in the world. the voice of the BBC...
U need a pair.
the 4040 is more than a 4038, but better. it's different. wider bandwidth, and a bit more neutral sounding than the 4038 but still w/ a healthy dollop of it's own peculiar vibe. the 4040 is probably usable in more situations w/o having stacks of them imparting too much of a 'character' to the end result than the 4038.
the REAL slutty answer is that U need a pair of 4040s too.
man, suck it up...
and why is that ribbons, overall, are more suitable for making digital recording sound palatable than most condensers?

[Mike Caffrey]

A matched pair is a good starting point, but realistically, they're easy enough to knock out of spec that they're not going to be matched if they get regular use as a close mic.

[jbuntz]

4038's in blumlein sounds pretty cool. I"ve been doing it with pacificas lately, tried neves, apis and mp2s and they were all cool too though the neves were perhaps too dark. It's tricky though because the huge magnets tend to pull the mics together. It makes me curious if there is any crosstalk from this. I like the way the 4038 sounds better than a 121 usually though a 4038 distorts rather easily around loud sounds (fine for reasonably placed overheads or fok). 4038 mono is good for a vintage vibe - think pink floyd. You can add 12 db of air (20k ish stuff) and it's not harsh at all. Delightful on upright bass and cello too.

[RoundBadge]

Favorite coles pre's on drums: Dakingthumbsup

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Favorite coles pre's on drums: Dakingthumbsup

Hey 'Badge,

You're using the 4038s, right? Have you ever compared them to the 4040s on drums?

Thanks!

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Hey 'Badge,

You're using the 4038s, right? Have you ever compared them to the 4040s on drums?

Thanks!

I had the 4040's for a brief period..sounded more open on the hi's .. a bit more hi fi modern vibe overall.used em on vocals..sounded fantastic.

I'd absolutely love to cop a pair someday..don't ever se em' used though...