Mic'ing orchestra in concert- vs studio- hall

[rumleymusic]

I think this mostly has to do with either the inexperience of the recoridng engineer, or the limitations of the location. I personally like to get higher and closer rather than further out, simply because that is the way high frequencies travel initially, and the result is significantly greater clarity. It has little to do with the shape or size of the room and more with simple physics.

The first mistake of most unknowledgeable persons attempting to record an ensemble is to assume miking further out will capture a more realistic "audience-like" perspective, when in reality it just muddies the sound and neglects the capture of important high frequencies. The popularity of diffuse field mics is in my opinion the result of lack of know-how in some, and lack of opportunity in others (ie pro field recordists having do deal with limited mic placement options), to achieve the proper height and angle necessary record a superior sound.

If we only dealt with closed recording sessions, placement would not be an issue, but in reality, most concert halls, especially if hanging mics, have limited options for mic placement, and that is why you frequently see mics farther out than ideal.

[Rolo 46]

Too high concert placing can result in 'birds eye view' soundfield and harsh string tones and poor acoustics.
Studios have better controlled acoustic and mics can be rigged almost anywhere
In public concerts I would love to be 12' high and 12' back from the conductor,this is impossible, unless flown,the option is not possible for me.
I have contemplated a boom over the audience,but H&S consideration briddles this concept.

[roonsbane]

There are several issues I try to balance against each other when determining mic placement in front of an orchestra. You solidify a ratio of the front of the orchestra to the back of the orchestra in your choice. You are also making tonal decisions since the strings radiate with a drum head like complexity so they tend to sound different at different heights. Of course you are also deciding on the direct sound to ambience ratio as well. Also, when there is an audience involved, the further into the hall, the more audience noise you will pick up. Balancing those major factors is the art form of it.

I am surprised that you notice micing further into the hall when there is an audience. I believe this is probably due to limited hang points or bad choices. It's hard to if not impossible for me to say I want to be this high and this far out in any given hall since the rooms all have different effects on the sound. Ok, maybe as a starting point, but it will likely change if I get a sound check. Sometimes surprisingly so.

It is sometimes the case, even in new halls, that I don't get a sound check, then I use my best judgment and hope for the best. Hopefully you get a sense of the room when you setup in a new room that gets you in the tweakable ballpark. Hopefully also, you can then get the mics where you need them to be.
Cameron

[Plush]

I would not say that there is a consistent rule about placement in halls or studios. Most studios outside of film scoring stages are too small for a real orchestra. A so called chamber orchestra or small cheesy group of vln. playas assembled to double or triple track parts are more what is seen nowadays.

Part of what governs placement in the hall is the quality of the acoustic. The desired method is something (mics) close combined with something at mid distance and also at a farther distance. The tonmeister blends these according to his aesthetic. Balls out old style engineers always make the balance on the spot recording to a stereo machine. Multi-track back up is valuable for adjudicating the mix in a known room / monitor environment at a later time.

Usually a good guide rule is that omni mics are at the front of the orchestra with directional mics appearing as you go farther in to the orchestra. Playas at the back of the orch. like perc., timp, brass etc. receive cardioid mic treatment to isolate their sound.

The mics at the front of the orchestra are usually placed 10-12 feet high with other orch spots hovering much lower.

One only learns by doing with this work. As you get more and more experienced (decades of work) placement and mix refinement enable you to offer an expensive sound. The better the hall the more expensive it sounds.

[king2070lplaya]

Thanks everyone, that's very helpful. If anyone else has anything, please keep em coming!

[roonsbane]

This is such a fun, deep subject. Other factors of course are that rooms change with audience size, and a piece like Strauss, "Metamorphosen for twenty three solo strings", which I recorded two weeks ago often sound like they need a bit more space when compared with a Beethoven Symphony that might be on the same program. There is something about those dark chunky string chords that make me want some contrasting light/bright reverb. Unfortunately, rarely can I adjust mic placement between pieces during a live performance. Also, a piano concerto thrown in on the same program will often be the biggest challange since optimally micing may need to change for that piece. Another thing is the battle with the stage manager to keep their setups with a consistant front line so that sonics don't change too much, or they give you the changes that you need.

Another issue is of course the bigger the audience, the dryer the room.

If I get a balance to my liking, but it seems like it will be dry with an audience, I try to go up and out, trying to keep that front to back ratio.

Let's not forget the issue of a very strong concertmaster, or wind player. It happens!

I do know a fairly well known classical recording company that uses the same mains setup at most venues. Same height, same spacing, same distance to the front row of strings. Maybe they would change things up a bit if they were recoring each piece for release individually. They have been doing this a very long time.

How to handle the piano concerto on a program of unrelated pieces should be its own thread.
Cameron

[rumleymusic]

Well lets not confuse "higher" with "birds-eye" view. No one is suggesting you should mic a group from a catwalk 40 feet up. I usually aim for 10 feet high, a couple of feet back from the conductor position if using omnis and 6-10 feet back (and slightly higher) if using cardioids. A poor positioning is, lets say, 25 feet back at head level for the stage. You see this quite frequently with amateur college or student performances.

If you are having trouble picking up the winds and brass, a higher positioning might be better. If they are on risers, you might have to go a little bit lower. It all depends on the situation, the hall, and the group.

[aracu]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

The first mistake of most unknowledgeable persons attempting to record an ensemble is to assume miking further out will capture a more realistic "audience-like" perspective, when in reality it just muddies the sound and neglects the capture of important high frequencies. The popularity of diffuse field mics is in my opinion the result of lack of know-how in some, and lack of opportunity in others (ie pro field recordists having do deal with limited mic placement options), to achieve the proper height and angle necessary record a superior sound.

If we only dealt with closed recording sessions, placement would not be an issue, but in reality, most concert halls, especially if hanging mics, have limited options for mic placement, and that is why you frequently see mics farther out than ideal.

This makes sense in a mediocre acoustic. In an excellent sounding reverberant space though, diffuse field omnis can sound fantastic
from a further away placement.

"Usually a good guide rule is that omni mics are at the front of the orchestra with directional mics appearing as you go farther in to the orchestra."

It is very helpful to have an omni over the center of (within) the orchestra to help balance the entire stereo image and orchestral balance.

[king2070lplaya]

I was talking about subtle variations, like 12 feet high and over the front row in the proverbial "abbey road", vs 9ft high and 5 ft back in a longer hall. There is an optimal distance, and my question was, when do you go up an when do you go out to achieve it.

But I like what's been said here, balancing the volume and presence of the woodwind and strings to achieve the optimal angle, and then moving down and in or up and back to maintain that and but achieve more or less ambience.

I like what plush was saying about blending the different perspectives, for me right now though my clients appreciate and time constraints dictate a simpler approach, so at the moment I'm sticking with mains with outriggers, woodwind pair, and spots on tymps, bass and soloist.