Recommendations for recording jazz trio

[Jimbo]

I'll be recording a jazz trio (drums, upright bass, guitar) in a few weeks. They want to do either a live recording in a small club, small audience, or a group recording in a nice hall -- they have a facility in mind for the latter. The audience will likely be small and quiet.

I ventured-out to see the trio play, and they are tight, but I personally feel the drummer is too active/dominant given that the only lead player is guitar -- a very mellow sound. The drums would sound better with more brush or brush/stick work instead of just sticks -- but I can't control that.

The trio will be setup (left to right) bass, drums, guitar.

Here are the mics I have to work with:
AKG 414 XLII
MXL v69
Avenson STO-2 (pair -- like Earthworks omnis)
Shinybox 46 (modified ribbon with Lundahl mod)
Audix i5 (dynamic)
Oktava mc012

I'm thinking about trying the following configs:
-------
- 414 in front set to a cardiod, or wide-cardiod pattern
- Avenson on bass
- Avenson (or Shinybox) on guitar amp
This would allow me to bump-up the bass and guitar if the drums are too hot, which I expect, and I can pan them to create a nice, simple stereo image. However, if the drums levels are appropriate, then I'm stuck in mono.
--------
- Mid/Sid out front: v69-mid, 414-side
- Avenson on bass
- Avenson (or Shinybox) on guitar amp
This would give me the same as above, but with a dedicated stereo mix, and allow me to use the Avenson on the bass -- a great mic for that application.
--------
- Avensons out front with Jecklin disk.
- ?? on bass
- 414 or i5 (??) on guitar
Baffled omni could be cool, but then I've got nothing suitable for bass. The 414 might help the guitar stand-out more, but I've never tried it on an amp, much less a jazz guitar. The i5 could work for the same reason.
---------

What would YOU do? All advice is appreciated.

Thanks,

- Jim

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I'll be recording a jazz trio (drums, upright bass, guitar) in a few weeks. They want to do either a live recording in a small club, small audience, or a group recording in a nice hall -- they have a facility in mind for the latter. The audience will likely be small and quiet.

I ventured-out to see the trio play, and they are tight, but I personally feel the drummer is too active/dominant given that the only lead player is guitar -- a very mellow sound. The drums would sound better with more brush or brush/stick work instead of just sticks -- but I can't control that.

The trio will be setup (left to right) bass, drums, guitar.

Here are the mics I have to work with:
AKG 414 XLII
MXL v69
Avenson STO-2 (pair -- like Earthworks omnis)
Shinybox 46 (modified ribbon with Lundahl mod)
Audix i5 (dynamic)

I'm thinking about trying the following configs:
-------
- 414 in front set to a cardiod, or wide-cardiod pattern
- Avenson on bass
- Avenson (or Shinybox) on guitar amp
This would allow me to bump-up the bass and guitar if the drums are too hot, which I expect, and I can pan them to create a nice, simple stereo image. However, if the drums levels are appropriate, then I'm stuck in mono.
--------
- Mid/Sid out front: v69-mid, 414-side
- Avenson on bass
- Avenson (or Shinybox) on guitar amp
This would give me the same as above, but with a dedicated stereo mix, and allow me to use the Avenson on the bass -- a great mic for that application.
--------
- Avensons out front with Jecklin disk.
- ?? on bass
- 414 or i5 (??) on guitar
Baffled omni could be cool, but then I've got nothing suitable for bass. The 414 might help the guitar stand-out more, but I've never tried it on an amp, much less a jazz guitar. The i5 could work for the same reason.
---------

What would YOU do? All advice is appreciated.

Thanks,

- Jim

Ok, this is not a problem. Go with the ribbon on the guitar amp, the audix dynamic on the bass ( find the right spot perhaps just below the "F" hole on the "g"string side, and either a 414 or Avenson as a drum OH to pick up the entire set, and the other Avenson between the hh and snare. This second Avenson, can be used to add some extra hh "chip" and will also help when the drummer is playing with brushes. You won't need a bass drum mic because of the bleed, but if you desire one the MKL should do. Keep it about 1-foot away from the bass drum head. Jazz drummers don't normaly cut a hole in the bass drum or want that pop/rock "kick drum" sound. They usually prefer a more resonant sound from the drum without too much presence. This is not always the case so you'll have to feel it out.

Also, many jazz bass players don't use amps, so if your bassist doesn't bring one just mic the bass. If he/she does use an amp as part of the sound you can combine a mic on the bass with a touch of direct (if you have a dirsct box). I happen to prefer just a mic on the bass but I'm "old school".

[Jimbo]

Thanks.

I'm suprised, though. I thought that an out-front stereo setup would be the way to go.

I'll definitely try your recommendation, though.

- Jim

[mds]

A main stereo pair can be a really good idea. It usually captures a good basic sound, especially for the drums. You also mentioned it was a good room, so capturing some of the natural ambience would be cool.

You could do the omni's in a stereo pair, and then mic the guitar amp and then mic AND take a DI from the bass. Add a mic to the snare for detail and something in front of the kick for a little extra bottom and you'd be in good shape, so:

Averson's in front
Ribbon on guitar
414 on bass
Audix on snare
MXL in front of kick

This would give you a lot of mixing options and wouldn't shouldn't leave you missing anything. Just an alternate approach, AJFarber's plan would work great too.

Mike

[Jimbo]

I forgot to mention my Oktava mc012.
I've edited above.

[pkautzsch]

I'd go for:
- Drums mono OH, SN, BD
- Guit amp
- Bass f-hole (+ amp if available for that small amount of speaker dirtiness)
- Main pair omni without baffle but at least 2 ft spacing to get a nice room sound

As I don't know most of the mics you have, I can't recommend which mic for which instrument, but the 414s should be fine for the f-hole and the snare. A ribbon might be nice as OH mic.
The main pair will pick up some audience, but this is fine as long as the CD booklet says "live at ...".

[Jimbo]

I'm liking what I hear.

I'm also thinking that I could mic each instrument (ala AJFarber) but put the 414 about 10 ft in front of the stage in either wide-cardiod or omni to pick up room ambience, and to get a nice overall capture.

Oooohh, boy do I like options!

Thanks.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

I'd go for:
- Main pair omni without baffle but at least 2 ft spacing to get a nice room sound
.

I'm baffled...Why no baffle?

[pkautzsch]

No baffle: just personal taste.
I prefer larger spacing between the mics since this doesn't add L-R color differences and makes the sound wider and more spacious. Baffles seem a bit risky to me since reflections can produce comb-filterish sound (it's similar to placing a mic a few inches from a wall, isn't it). The omni pair in your case is more like a room mic to add richness and volume, and space. The wider you space the mics, the more spacious it will sound.
Pressure transducers (SDC omnis - probably the Avensons?) will have the best bass response.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

I'd go for:
- Drums mono OH, SN, BD
- Guit amp
- Bass f-hole (+ amp if available for that small amount of speaker dirtiness)
- Main pair omni without baffle but at least 2 ft spacing to get a nice room sound

As I don't know most of the mics you have, I can't recommend which mic for which instrument, but the 414s should be fine for the f-hole and the snare. A ribbon might be nice as OH mic.
The main pair will pick up some audience, but this is fine as long as the CD booklet says "live at ...".

Do not mic the bass amp unless the bassist: A) Has no sound at all or: B) wants the recording to sound like 1974.

Avoid LDC on bass in a live situation w/o baffles. Too much bleed from drums. A ribbon mic on bass will give good off-axis rejection, so you can set the bass up next to the drums w/o too much bleed.

Avoid room mics unless you know the room well and it is big enough. Too many standing waves floating into room mics may make the recording sound like a glorified "Walkman" recording. Room mics can also contribute to phase issues and box you into some panning disisions. Room mics are better for classical and large ensembles. If there is to be a large crowd at the gig and you want to capture clapping and cheering (assuming the band plays well) an omni mic in the house might be a good idea.

[Jamz]

Jimbo

My .02
I would use your Avensons to capture the overal main "picture". Either spaced or Jecklin...you're preference. Jecklin has a tendency to reduce the highs just a tad. Which method used will depend on the spread of the setup, size of the room and where you're actually able to place the mics. You'll have to experiment and judge for yourself.
Close mic the players the best you can so you're able to reinforce their presence in the overall mix as desired.

Ribbon: guitar amp
414: Bass + DI (you're welcome to borrow one of my U5s if you'd like).

i5: snare
MXL 69: kick
Borrow my Octava(s) and use pair as overheads on the drums :)

[Jimbo]

Thanks Jim,

I appreciate the offer!

- Jim