Choral Project

[maestro]

I am to record a 50 member male voice choir accompanied by Drums, Bass Guitar, Acoustic Guitar, 3 violins, Cello and 9ft Steinway Piano in a Church (sometimes with a solo vocal also).

Using Pro Tools LE with Mac PowerBook i have the following Mics and Pres.

Microphones

AKG414B-ULS, AKG Solidtube, Neumann SKM140 (Cardioid) Stereo Pair, DPA stereo 4006 (Omni) stereo set, Shure Beta 58a x2, Shure SM57

Outboard

Manley VoxBox Voice Channel, SPL Gold Mike Pre Amp, Millenia HV3D 4 channel mic pre , CraneSong Spider 8 Channel mic pre with ADAT

How can i use that equipment? I suspect i need more mics? Any ideas welcome. Thank you forum readers

[Roland]

Originally Posted by maestro

I am to record a 50 member male voice choir accompanied by Drums, Bass Guitar, Acoustic Guitar, 3 violins, Cello and 9ft Steinway Piano in a Church (sometimes with a solo vocal also).

Using Pro Tools LE with Mac PowerBook i have the following Mics and Pres.

Microphones

AKG414B-ULS, AKG Solidtube, Neumann SKM140 (Cardioid) Stereo Pair, DPA stereo 4006 (Omni) stereo set, Shure Beta 58a x2, Shure SM57

Outboard

Manley VoxBox Voice Channel, SPL Gold Mike Pre Amp, Millenia HV3D 4 channel mic pre , CraneSong Spider 8 Channel mic pre with ADAT

How can i use that equipment? I suspect i need more mics? Any ideas welcome. Thank you forum readers

By my calculations you will probably need about 15 microphones to pull this off sucessfully. No disrespect, but cut out the fancy pre's get a decent desk and track it to a system with at least 16 channels available. Your biggest problems here will be ones of balance, particularly with this instrumentation.

Regards



Roland

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by maestro

I am to record a 50 member male voice choir accompanied by Drums, Bass Guitar, Acoustic Guitar, 3 violins, Cello and 9ft Steinway Piano in a Church (sometimes with a solo vocal also).

Using Pro Tools LE with Mac PowerBook i have the following Mics and Pres.

Microphones

AKG414B-ULS, AKG Solidtube, Neumann SKM140 (Cardioid) Stereo Pair, DPA stereo 4006 (Omni) stereo set, Shure Beta 58a x2, Shure SM57

Outboard

Manley VoxBox Voice Channel, SPL Gold Mike Pre Amp, Millenia HV3D 4 channel mic pre , CraneSong Spider 8 Channel mic pre with ADAT

How can i use that equipment? I suspect i need more mics? Any ideas welcome. Thank you forum readers

I'd make the Spider your "Console", using the other pre's as needed. Use the DPA stereo setup for the voices, spaced appropriately, saving the 414 as a solo or spot mic as needed. Keep the drums away from the choir and mic them with a 58 on top pointing at the snare, and the other 58 on the kick. SM57 on the 12th fret of the ac gtr. Put the Neuman 140's on the piano, and have the string quartet voice itself around the Solidtube (or perhaps vice versa--stereo on the string quartet, one mic on piano). Take the bass direct.

If you have extra mics, consider spot micing the cello and adding a pair of more distant room mics.

A proper physical arrangement is key. The drum sound could go everywhere, so the drummer should play lightly and even perhaps use some lighter variation on regular sticks. Also, the strings, if they're not close miced, should be baffled off or away from the choir. Also, for timing and pitch, it may be necessary to have some monitors for the choir to feed in some of the instruments. Keep it as soft as possible and position them to stay out of the other mics.

If you're in a big church and not a pro studio resign yourself to a lot of leakage and the fact that you won't get a tight studio rhythm section sound. That's okay, you can still get a wonderful and moving recording.

Good luck,

-R

[maestro]

I don't have a 'decent' desk (may invest at a later stage). I use the 002 Pro Tools and intend to use my quality pres.

The main problem with balance is drum spill. It will be considerable

I like the idea of using the Spider as "Console" and micing ideas R. Thank You.

I could invest in overheads for the drums? Any suggestions. Or if i were to overdub strings at a later date i could use the beta 58s as drum overheads?

I don't have extra mics. What room mics could i invest in to add to my collection?

I agree that a proper physical arrangement is key. Yes the drum sound could go everywhere.

I can handle some leakage as long as the overall 'blend' is correct.

Is this an odd question. What are the chances of recording the entire setup with just a stereo pair and no spot micing?

Thanks for all advice.

[drBill]

Your biggest problem will be to keep 60+ people from going out of their minds while you tweak things. If you decide to go for seperation, your second biggest problem will be a very complex monitoring scenario in an envrionment that's not set up for it. I agree that a console would make the session move a lot quicker. The performance is everything here, you must move very quickly and even if you don't have the best pre's in the world, they will remember the time it took, not the sound of your millenia's.

If you decide to try for seperation and not a "documentation" of a live performance, you need to get some space between the rhythm section, strings and the choir. Figure out a way to work quickly. Rick had some valuable suggestions. I would suggest monitors for the choir so that they feel comfortable, and get the band as isloated as you can, feeding them into the monitors and the choir back to them. How do you plan to do all of this without a console? Personally I wouldn't attempt it. It's possible, but not very elegant as far as speed and flexibility go. Loose the speed and you will certainly impact the performance as I presume these folks have jobs, families and other stuff to do.

Unless you have the monitoring situation dialed in and worked out to a science before you go in, you might be better off trying to "document" their live performance than doing a psuedo "studio" recording. ie: Set them up normal how they would do a concert/service, turn on the PA and let them go at it! Lots of killer recordings have been done this way. It's not going to "sound" killer in a controlled studio sence, but a great vocal sound with bored and fed up singers and musicians isn't exactly good either. Let it bleed and spot mic the important things while capturing the PA system in the house. That's a good alternative if you don't have a console and a sophisticated way to get everyone to monitor each other with seperation. Good luck. Sounds like a challenge. Make sure you have a couple of assistants to help you out. Bill

[lefthando]

Originally Posted by drBill

Your biggest problem will be to keep 60+ people from going out of their minds while you tweak things. If you decide to go for seperation, your second biggest problem will be a very complex monitoring scenario in an envrionment that's not set up for it. I agree that a console would make the session move a lot quicker. The performance is everything here, you must move very quickly and even if you don't have the best pre's in the world, they will remember the time it took, not the sound of your millenia's.

If you decide to try for seperation and not a "documentation" of a live performance, you need to get some space between the rhythm section, strings and the choir. Figure out a way to work quickly. Rick had some valuable suggestions. I would suggest monitors for the choir so that they feel comfortable, and get the band as isloated as you can, feeding them into the monitors and the choir back to them. How do you plan to do all of this without a console? Personally I wouldn't attempt it. It's possible, but not very elegant as far as speed and flexibility go. Loose the speed and you will certainly impact the performance as I presume these folks have jobs, families and other stuff to do.

Unless you have the monitoring situation dialed in and worked out to a science before you go in, you might be better off trying to "document" their live performance than doing a psuedo "studio" recording. ie: Set them up normal how they would do a concert/service, turn on the PA and let them go at it! Lots of killer recordings have been done this way. It's not going to "sound" killer in a controlled studio sence, but a great vocal sound with bored and fed up singers and musicians isn't exactly good either. Let it bleed and spot mic the important things while capturing the PA system in the house. That's a good alternative if you don't have a console and a sophisticated way to get everyone to monitor each other with seperation. Good luck. Sounds like a challenge. Make sure you have a couple of assistants to help you out. Bill

This is GOOD advice. thumbsup

[tmcconnell]

I'd use the spider as the console, the dpa's for the voices, the ska 140's over the piano and strings as close as possible + carefully positioned, the solidtube for the acoustic guitar, the 414 as a mono overhead for the drums, in hypercardoid no rolloff, the sm57 on kick, and the 58's as close vocal for soloists if they are out front. Bass direct and not in the room if possible.

I'd do ANYTHING you can do to get some isolation for the drums. I'd use the millenia for the dpa and the ska's, and the vox box for the acoustic guitar with about 3 db of compression to tape.

No point in wasting the nice mics on stereo drum overheads imo because the bleed to the other stereo pairs will give them a lot of dimension.

[mrmicguy]

I've had some good results in decreasing spill by wrapping some speaker innerbond/dampner/whatever you want to call that white stuff - around a screen door. Presto instant baffle/partition. stand it up, lay it on its edge - whatever is required.

I've ended up making some wooden frames on wheels to staple the spkr dampner on to as a more permanent setup. They just sit in the corner of my studio until I need to use them - then they get wheeled out. They were cheap and easy to make.

Can post some picks if you're interested.

I've also done useful recordings of drum kits with just an overhead LDC and a good dynamic on the kick drum.

[maestro]

I would ensure i have a well planned recording session.I'd bring the musicians in one at a time before the choir arrives and check/tune up etc. I would do my utmost to get best balance using just 2 mics.

Would space between the rhythm section, strings and the choir cause any timing problems?

I would prefer not to have to use monitors. I think that could cause even more spill. Recorded this choir to a backing track once and found the whole process very unnatural musically.

I will bring assistants

If i were to buy some plexiglass for the drums does anyone recommend what type and how much of it.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by maestro

I would ensure i have a well planned recording session.I'd bring the musicians in one at a time before the choir arrives and check/tune up etc. I would do my utmost to get best balance using just 2 mics.

Would space between the rhythm section, strings and the choir cause any timing problems?

I would prefer not to have to use monitors. I think that could cause even more spill. Recorded this choir to a backing track once and found the whole process very unnatural musically.

I will bring assistants

If i were to buy some plexiglass for the drums does anyone recommend what type and how much of it.

I'm still unsure about your approach. When you say 2 mics, do you mean that you're trying to catch the sound of the group (instumentalists & vocalists) as it is in the room to a listener? Is there PA amplification involved? Yes, space between vocals and instruments will definately cause timing issues, and will additionally cause the need for increased monitoring sophistication. What are you going for? A live sound? Or a studio sound? Ultimately, that one single answer will determine the answers to all your questions. Right now, we're just shooting in the dark. You may not even know the answer. Best check with the producer and see what they expect out of the process. If it's a studio sound, you've got a tall order on your hands.

IMO, without seperation, more mics, a console, and sufficient time, you are better off trying to capture them in a "live" type of sound setting.

As for monitors, try this - (of course this will probably require some type of console, but....) : Get your mics set up and sounding good on the choir, then place 2 floor wedge monitors in a mirror image setting with the mics. (This is hard for me to describe, but hopefully, you'll understand what I'm trying to say.) Put the monitors 180 degrees out of phase from each other. Run some program material thru them and listen to the mic inputs at the console. Adjust monitor angle, throw, volume, etc. for maximum phase cancellation. That will minimize the bleed you've experienced in the past. It won't get rid of it, but it should help.

If you try for isolation with the players, you'll absolutely need monitors for the choir. Just remember, bleed is not necessarily a bad thing. The secret is getting good sounding bleed. Good luck. bp

[maestro]

I'm attaching a recording of the choir from an earlier CD. Instrumentation is Choir (2 4006s), 9ft Steinway Piano (U87),Bass Guitar going through amp (DI i think. Quite a bit of this spilled into main mics/4006s), Drums (Neumann KM140s overheads). 2 Violins and Cello were overdubbed later. There was no monitoring used in the session.

I would be very happy to recapture that sound. Or if you would like to comment on the recording and how it could be improved i'd be very interested.

Thanks for the monitoring tips.