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-   -   Behringer X32 for Live Sound @ FOH (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/771260-behringer-x32-live-sound-foh.html)

Temple of Light 15th August 2012 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bratwurst (Post 8164303)
Sure, the X32 has moving faders and the scene/storeing recalls the last position, but that's all. No dynamic fader rides with a timeline.


Very interesting, a knowledgable person at last...
Since you seem to be the resident expert, please let me pose you a few questions, I've been lurking on this and many other threads including soundforums.net and have many unresolved questions I hope you can answer...
The total dynamic range of the console is what? Any mic in to any analog out? 114db
You mention the console is 48khz, you are referring to the sampling rate of all the AtoD converters yes? Can they be switched to 96khz? No
All A to D's on the xlr ins are 24 bit? Yes
What is the purpose/intent of the moving faders if not to follow a dynamic fader movement in a timeline?
What is the extent of the Automation? How many events will it record, and in what context?
100 scenes, 100 channel settings, 100 fx settings, 100 routing setupsDo you know what sort of expansion cards will be available?
FW & USB
What is the intented application of the ethernet port:
data transfer to what? DAW? S16 or P16
My application is for recording and how I can interface this beast into my universe is still a bit of a challenge,
since it has no direct outs, tape returns or mix B capability.

I apologize if this seems like whitling away your wits, but I'm not about to drop 6k until I have the big picture and the whole story {yes I'd get 2}Thanks for
your perspective, you do have R&R in your veins...

Temple of Light 15th August 2012 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bratwurst (Post 8163451)
What automation? The X32 has no automation, it is mainly a live console just with a 32in/out recording card and a Mackie control emulation. That's it.
But I'm sure you audio sequenzer has a automation though;)

32in/out recording card on what, firewire?
Anything planned for analog direct outs on 1/4" TRS, additional XLR
or DB25 TDIF?
Mackie control automation, as in TT24, D8B, HDR24/96, HUI, or
The Big Knob thingy? Thanks again, trying to see the light here....

jeronimo 15th August 2012 06:46 AM

I see that Temple of Light is a little lost:
- a console can have moving faders and NOT record automation. Have you thought about moving from bank 1-16 to 17-32 without moving faders???
- the console has Mackie HUI protocol (to communicate with your DAW) only for the "VCA" faders
- the console has 16 outs that you can configure however you want, it's on the manual, brochures, etc.
- yes, 32 i/o thru Firewire
- there is NO automation on the console. All you can do now is write automation on the VCA faders and have them follow it later on, but the 16 "audio" channels are static.

Temple of Light 15th August 2012 07:21 AM

Uhhhh, ok, fair enough; methinks this a consequence of the cutting edge
upon which I dance...
and I dont do the DAW.
Then my last question{@least for this week} is there a output for a video monitor?, I saw one being used by a Behringer guy in a Utube Video, that mirrored the TFT display, but haven't seen or heard any other mention of it... the 16 xlr outs are less than half of my requirements for getting back to my recorders without a seperate console/interface......32 channels out on 25 pin Dsub TDIF would be nice...so 8 VCA faders could control volume fades {as per group rather than track} and recall them
per boot....hmmmm.

Bratwurst 15th August 2012 07:32 AM

Hi,
jeronimo covered most of your questions I think, thank's for that. Let me add just some details.

The X32 comes with a full duplex 32 channel recording card (32 in AND out simultaniously). It has Firewire AND USB. For low latency go with the Firewire port. The USB port has a high security buffer, you won't get lower than 12ms for the roundtrip (analog in to analog out), therefore it works with almost every computer. I was able to record a 32track show on a small Acer One netbook with a crappy ATOM cpu! The firewire can handle low latency. I got it down to 48 Samples with an windows PC (using a T.I. chipset FiWi card) and with 64 Samples on a MacBook Pro. Really impressive!

As far as I know, there is no analog insert card comming. As a workaround you could use the six Aux in and Aux out (TRS connectors) on the board as analog insert. These can be routed in any of the 32 inputs channels.
The X32 has Mackie Control, Mackie HUI and Midi CC!
And it does have a build in talkback (external mike as well), a monitor (control room) section with volume pot for your monitor speakers and a dimm button. All the basic features for a studio setup.
Christian

ooohhh2 15th August 2012 07:53 AM

@Temple of Light and others:

Why don't you take a look at these nice videos, it will cover almost all of your questions:

Behringer X32 Digital Desk Hardware Overview (PT1) - YouTube
Behringer X32 Review Part 2 - your questions answered - YouTube

Bratwurst 15th August 2012 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooohhh2 (Post 8165949)
@Temple of Light and others:

Why don't you take a look at these nice videos, it will cover almost all of your questions:

Behringer X32 Digital Desk Hardware Overview (PT1) - YouTube
Behringer X32 Review Part 2 - your questions answered - YouTube

Nice find!
Thank you

Tube World 15th August 2012 02:50 PM

How about being able to link two channels together...did not see it on the pre manual info.

jimdrake 15th August 2012 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tube World (Post 8166725)
How about being able to link two channels together...did not see it on the pre manual info.

the guy specifically mentions that in the last video. you can link them it's just a bit slow unlike other consoles where you can just press and hold two select buttons.

Bratwurst 15th August 2012 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tube World (Post 8166725)
How about being able to link two channels together...did not see it on the pre manual info.

Select the first of the two channel you want to link, push the first encoder below the display...done!
Basically just two buttons to push.

Tube World 15th August 2012 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bratwurst (Post 8166807)
Select the first of the two channel you want to link, push the first encoder below the display...done!
Basically just two buttons to push.

That is easy

Thank you. I have two additional questions;

1. Where do you connect your floor monitors to on the back of the unit?

2. In my studio setup, I want to be able to solo a channel and only hear it through my monitors. For live situations, when I solo a channel, I want to hear it soloed only in the headphones and not out of the main monitors. Please advise where the main speakers in a live setup would be connected to, and where my monitors in my studio would be connected to for the solo button to perform the way I want it to….or is there a PFL button someplace on the unit.

winedup 15th August 2012 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tube World (Post 8167158)
That is easy

Thank you. I have two additional questions;

1. Where do you connect your floor monitors to on the back of the unit?

2. In my studio setup, I want to be able to solo a channel and only hear it through my monitors. For live situations, when I solo a channel, I want to hear it soloed only in the headphones and not out of the main monitors. Please advise where the main speakers in a live setup would be connected to, and where my monitors in my studio would be connected to for the solo button to perform the way I want it to….or is there a PFL button someplace on the unit.

If I'm not mistaken, the house mains would connect to 15/16 out by default, whereas your 'nearfield' monitors would connect to the monitor out jacks. This should result in the desired operation.

Tube World 15th August 2012 07:07 PM

A silly question, but can you use a ethernet connection instead of FireWire or USB for my studio. would assume Ethernet is the fastest connection? With Cubase having Asio drivers how does one assign this to the X32?

winedup 15th August 2012 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tube World (Post 8167479)
A silly question, but can you use a ethernet connection instead of FireWire or USB for my studio. would assume Ethernet is the fastest connection? With Cubase having Asio drivers how does one assign this to the X32?

I don't think so. For DAW integration, FiWi or USB are your current options to get multichannel audio in/out of the desk. Behringer has Windows drivers on the downloads page for the X32 (online).

Bratwurst 15th August 2012 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winedup (Post 8167310)
If I'm not mistaken, the house mains would connect to 15/16 out by default, whereas your 'nearfield' monitors would connect to the monitor out jacks. This should result in the desired operation.

Correct!

Bratwurst 15th August 2012 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winedup (Post 8167608)
I don't think so. For DAW integration, FiWi or USB are your current options to get multichannel audio in/out of the desk. Behringer has Windows drivers on the downloads page for the X32 (online).

Also correct:-)
The ethernet port is where you hook up your router. With the router you can connect up to ten iPad (there is an dedicated IPad app for the X32 in the App store by now) and/or several PC with the remote editor software, that will be available soon as public beta version. Happy remoteing:-)

Tube World 15th August 2012 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winedup (Post 8167608)
I don't think so. For DAW integration, FiWi or USB are your current options to get multichannel audio in/out of the desk. Behringer has Windows drivers on the downloads page for the X32 (online).

I know I would use the mid in and out for DAW. My problem is my 3 year old computer from Dell does not have firewire which I can't believe. Anyway, it has USB2 and Ethernet. I was hopeful that I could Ethernet instead of USB 2 because Christian mentioned there is more latency with USB2. Is the Ethernet connection only for internet then? Without firewire would AES be a better option over the USB?

winedup 15th August 2012 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tube World (Post 8167706)
I know I would use the mid in and out for DAW. My problem is my 3 year old computer from Dell does not have firewire which I can't believe. Anyway, it has USB2 and Ethernet. I was hopeful that I could Ethernet instead of USB 2 because Christian mentioned there is more latency with USB2. Is the Ethernet connection only for internet then? Without firewire would AES be a better option over the USB?

Depending on whether you have a laptop or desktop computer, you can get a FiWi card. Laptops would use either a PCMCIA or CardBus type, while a desktop machine would use a PCI card. Often, with FiWi, chipsets MATTER. I can't speak for the Behringer desk (yet), but other FiWi interfaces tend to work well with TI (Texas Instruments) chipsets.

And, I'm pretty sure you could use a USB cable from the port next to the inboard Ethernet on the X32 to carry your MIDI I/O, instead of the 5-pin DIN connector. Dealers choice on that one! :-)

With regard to AES, I don't think you have any options currently to carry the AES traffic to/from the computer. Buying a FiWi card would be an order of magnitude cheaper.

winedup 16th August 2012 02:37 AM

Looks like the public beta for the Xcontrol (PC) app is online on the Behringer X32 downloads page....

PDC 18th August 2012 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimdrake (Post 8161030)
Are you using the lynx card with the midas system? I am very interested in this card.

I know the midas gear is locked to 96k (which seems quite unprofessional to me) but the lynx card is freely selectable no?

The behringer can switch between 44.1 and 48 which seems more pro than the midas!

I am hoping to use a lynx card to record the aes50 stream from a S16 or X32 and would like to know about any user experience!

I have not done this yet. Lynx had some driver and cable length issues. There was a motherboard compatibility issues as well. I am waiting on a fellow user of the same cards to verify.

96k is completely professional. I don't know why you would think it isn't. Behringer X32 is 48k. Behringer is working on a converter, making it possible to cross pollenate hardware, etc.

PDC 18th August 2012 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Temple of Light (Post 8165784)
Very interesting, a knowledgable person at last...
Since you seem to be the resident expert, please let me pose you a few questions, I've been lurking on this and many other threads including soundforums.net and have many unresolved questions I hope you can answer...
The total dynamic range of the console is what? Any mic in to any analog out? 114db
You mention the console is 48khz, you are referring to the sampling rate of all the AtoD converters yes? Can they be switched to 96khz? No
All A to D's on the xlr ins are 24 bit? Yes
What is the purpose/intent of the moving faders if not to follow a dynamic fader movement in a timeline?
What is the extent of the Automation? How many events will it record, and in what context?
100 scenes, 100 channel settings, 100 fx settings, 100 routing setupsDo you know what sort of expansion cards will be available?
FW & USB
What is the intented application of the ethernet port:
data transfer to what? DAW? S16 or P16
My application is for recording and how I can interface this beast into my universe is still a bit of a challenge,
since it has no direct outs, tape returns or mix B capability.

I apologize if this seems like whitling away your wits, but I'm not about to drop 6k until I have the big picture and the whole story {yes I'd get 2}Thanks for
your perspective, you do have R&R in your veins...

There are no cards AFAIK. What you get is what you get. The X32 comes with everything that will be offered. The optional card for recording has been included. All outputs are active simultaneously. You can use analog outs, Firewire, USB, AES50 all at the same time. They made no mention of going beyond AES50.

PDC 18th August 2012 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winedup (Post 8167833)
Depending on whether you have a laptop or desktop computer, you can get a FiWi card. Laptops would use either a PCMCIA or CardBus type, while a desktop machine would use a PCI card. Often, with FiWi, chipsets MATTER. I can't speak for the Behringer desk (yet), but other FiWi interfaces tend to work well with TI (Texas Instruments) chipsets.

And, I'm pretty sure you could use a USB cable from the port next to the inboard Ethernet on the X32 to carry your MIDI I/O, instead of the 5-pin DIN connector. Dealers choice on that one! :-)

With regard to AES, I don't think you have any options currently to carry the AES traffic to/from the computer. Buying a FiWi card would be an order of magnitude cheaper.

The Starin and Behringer rep with the X32 van show were unclear as to what the USB would do. They at one time said it too would do 32x32 audio. I can't imagine that is right. I don't think anyone knows what that jack is for completely. Nobody at the bottom anyway. Firewire comes stock on the X32. There is no digital audio in/out option for the X32, which is weird.

BradLyons 18th August 2012 08:33 AM

The X32 is absolutely an interesting console to say the least because of its price point. This is a LIVE CONSOLE, not a studio console----however there will be those that use it in this fashion because you can. But really the purpose of the X32 is as a live FOH console that you can multi-track record the events via the built-in firewire connection. The USB is for data, if it's also able to be used for recording then hey----great, but I'd never use USB for recording anything other than 2-channels. As to the built-in flash recorder it's meant for your stereo bus the same way that the Yamaha LS9 has a built-in flash recorder. This is NOT for multitrack recording. Again, the X32 is a live console meant for live use but again there will be those using it in a studio. Therefore being 48kHz is perfectly fine---you do NOT need 96kHz for recording in the live world....there are so many other detouring factors that it just wouldn't make sense. I've been using the DSHOW console for years connected directly to a Pro Tools HD system---it is only 48kHz and oh about $100,000 more money.

While the faders are motorized, there is no automation to the best of my knowledge....I only recently received my demo console so I'm still going through it. However this is a digital console so features can always be added via software, so you never know. The reason for the motorized faders is scene re-call again just like on an LS9. I'm going to compare the X32 to the LS9-32 because frankly, that is the intended target. While the LS9-32 is a better console and offers a lot more control, expansion options, and features---it's also significantly more money and not everyone needs that. As to latency.....IT DOESN'T MATTER, it's a console---you monitor on the console and not via the computer kfhkh And again, this is a live console---that feature is meant to record your live event to a laptop.

Unlike an LS9 there are no expansion slots for adding an AVIOM card---however built-in ethernet is there for their own protocol for their own personal mix distribution. While it's not AVIOM, it serves the same purpose for about half the price.

Glenn Bucci 18th August 2012 01:22 PM

I agree the X32 is designed for live use, however when you compare this mixer to a studio digital mixer like the Yamaha DM 1000, Tascam 3200, or 4800, the X32 shines over the others in many ways.

The X32 offers more dedicated controls over the Yamaha and 3200. This means having a faster work flow. Quality control i can't answer but I always felt the Tascam mixers felt vey consumer level. Mic pres from what others have said appear to be on par with Yamaha. The color screen is nicer than the mono chrome screen on the other mixers and the work flow is much improved over the Tascam including the menus.

Main downside of the X32 is no 96 recording and DAW control is not as extensive. However talking to someone who has a DM 1000 and took the X32 for a test drive, the effects on the X32 sound better than the Yamaha or Tascam. Many people who have project studios don't prefer to work with a software package and mouse to record and mix. So if you can use a digital mixer it can replace your Central Station, outboard converters, and Mackie controller this can be appealing. Working on a console over a mouse is also a lot more fun and satisfying to many. Having scribble strips is a huge plus in a studio environment as well. None of the other digital mixers offer that except the Yamaha DM 2000 which cost so much more money.

So if you want to work on a console that has moving faders, great sounding effects, the ability to route your external mic pre's and effects through the mixer the X32 really shines. It offers a lot more than the SSL X Desk which lacks pre's, Eq, effects and scribble strips and cost more. Granted the X desk is not designed to be a mixer, and for its routing purposes it does a great job and offers lots of clean headroom. When you put your tracks from your Daw to your mixer you stay in digital so there is no AD DA conversion going on. You can use the Effects on the mixer and route it back to your DAW. Mix on the X32 and save your settings when your done. automation can be done with the 8 faders on the mixer or with your mouse on the project page in your DAW. jummpp

Javi 18th August 2012 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Bucci (Post 8176138)
It offers a lot more than the SSL X Desk which lacks pre's, Eq, effects and scribble strips and cost more.

I believe the SSL X-Desk lives is in a different product category than the X32. I use my X-Desk for summing 22 analog inputs. The X32 is supposed to do another kind of job.

PDC 18th August 2012 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Bucci (Post 8176138)
I agree the X32 is designed for live use, however when you compare this mixer to a studio digital mixer like the Yamaha DM 1000, Tascam 3200, or 4800, the X32 shines over the others in many ways.

The X32 offers more dedicated controls over the Yamaha and 3200. This means having a faster work flow. Quality control i can't answer but I always felt the Tascam mixers felt vey consumer level. Mic pres from what others have said appear to be on par with Yamaha. The color screen is nicer than the mono chrome screen on the other mixers and the work flow is much improved over the Tascam including the menus.

Main downside of the X32 is no 96 recording and DAW control is not as extensive. However talking to someone who has a DM 1000 and took the X32 for a test drive, the effects on the X32 sound better than the Yamaha or Tascam. Many people who have project studios don't prefer to work with a software package and mouse to record and mix. So if you can use a digital mixer it can replace your Central Station, outboard converters, and Mackie controller this can be appealing. Working on a console over a mouse is also a lot more fun and satisfying to many. Having scribble strips is a huge plus in a studio environment as well. None of the other digital mixers offer that except the Yamaha DM 2000 which cost so much more money.

So if you want to work on a console that has moving faders, great sounding effects, the ability to route your external mic pre's and effects through the mixer the X32 really shines. It offers a lot more than the SSL X Desk which lacks pre's, Eq, effects and scribble strips and cost more. Granted the X desk is not designed to be a mixer, and for its routing purposes it does a great job and offers lots of clean headroom. When you put your tracks from your Daw to your mixer you stay in digital so there is no AD DA conversion going on. You can use the Effects on the mixer and route it back to your DAW. Mix on the X32 and save your settings when your done. automation can be done with the 8 faders on the mixer or with your mouse on the project page in your DAW. jummpp

You cannot compare any of them. You should be comparing this console to digital consoles like the Mackie 1608, Line 6 Stage Scape, PreSonus Studio Live 24, Yamaha 01Vs...Digital live consoles in the same general price range. X32 is not a recording console. It does basic control of a DAW. Big deal. That is not a recording console.

Tube World 18th August 2012 03:54 PM

In looking for a digital mixer for a studio, I checked out all digital mixers under $7,000. For the studio I agree with Glenn that the X32 beats out the Tasacm 3200 and 4800. With more dedicated controls over the Dm 1000 and better effects I see the X 32 being a better choice for project studios as well.

Bratwurst 18th August 2012 04:11 PM

Just did a quick demo with a student band. Recorded everything with the X32, mixed and mastered in StudioOneV2. I used the Mackie Control emulation for automation and fader rides within S1.
I'm quite pleased with the result...at least audiowise. Still some editing to do, but the X32 works really nice in a studio enviroment.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21028604/DemoRecording_X32.mp3

Christian

winedup 18th August 2012 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PDC (Post 8175607)
The Starin and Behringer rep with the X32 van show were unclear as to what the USB would do. They at one time said it too would do 32x32 audio. I can't imagine that is right. I don't think anyone knows what that jack is for completely. Nobody at the bottom anyway. Firewire comes stock on the X32. There is no digital audio in/out option for the X32, which is weird.

I got my X32 yesterday, and I can confirm that we DO see 32x32 when configured over a USB port. Now, to that note, I have NOT done any actual recordings to make sure the audio is good in that configuration, but on my Macs, Core Audio sees a 32x32 interface. Granted, I'll be using FiWi, but it's nice to have USB in my hip pocket in case I need it one day.

With regards to bandwidth requirements, a quick calculation for passing 64 simultaneous channels of audio is ~73.7Mbps (48K * 24 bits * 64 channels). Even at 30% of the theoretical 480Mb/sec maximum (which is reasonable to expect on a good USB interface), that's 144Mb/sec, so we're half of that. It's do-able, but I'm not wild about the overhead involved in moving that much data over USB - FiWi is a far better option. Not to mention significantly higher latency with USB.

Regards,

Don

Plush 18th August 2012 09:03 PM

An interesting budget console. It will have to go a looooong way to beat the Yamaha DM1000 though. New Behringer is less money than Yamaha.

It's a budget console. That's what it is. But i realize that that is not all it is.


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