Providing sound reinforcement AND multi-track recording

[Gedit]

I was asked to provide sound reinforcement AND tape a rock band's performance at a community center mainly because of my taping experience.

Here's some info about the venue and equipment ... any suggestions welcome.

Venue:

2400 square-foot rectangle (80' long x 30' wide) with cinderblock walls on three sides and floor-to-ceiling windows on the fourth (long) side. Drop ceiling. Lots of wall hangings so it's not so much of an echo chamber as it might seem.

Rig - PA

ONYX 1640 FOH (16-channel)
Peavey RQ-2314 SOH (12-channel)
1000 watt main amp
500 watt monitor amp
Main Speakers w/stands (2)
Monitors (4)

Rig - Taping

ONYX 1640 w/firewire > IBM workstation w/1gb RAM > Cubase SE

Microphone selection (looking for suggestions about where to use what, other than the drum mics)

2 AT4040
8 Behringer B1-Pro
2 Behringer B2-Pro
8 AT Pro 37
1 Sansom 8-mic drum kit
2 Sansom c02

[Remoteness]

Sounds like you have what it takes...

Just set the stuff up and plug it in!

If you have a choice where the stage will be, make sure you're shooting the sound down the long way (80'.)

What kind of speakers do you have?
How large is this rock band? Cannot suggest mics until we have a breakdown.
Do you have a splitter for the inputs to both rigs?

If I were you, I would set up my recording rig at FOH.

I'm sure others will add to this thread once we know more about your situation.

Best!

[Gedit]

thanks for the reply, steve.

here's the mic breakdown

1. GUITAR AMP #1 - STG. R
2. GUITAR AMP #2 – STG R
2. GUITAR D.I. - STG. R.
3. KEYBOARD AMP - CTR. STAGE
4. BASS RIG – STG L
5. GUITAR AMP #3 – STG L
6. CONGA #1 – STG R
7. CONGA #2 – STG R
8. LUCKY VOCAL MIC - STG R
9. MEGHAN VOCAL MIC - STG. CTR.
10. ELEANOR VOCAL MIC – STG. L
11. SNARE
12. RACK
13. FLOOR #1
14. FLOOR #2
15. HI-HAT
16. KICK DRUM

As far as a splitter, the same Onyx board that is FOH is also the firewire box, so recording will be done FOH and no need for a splitter. The stage is at one of the far ends of the room. PA speakers are (I think) Peavey (I'm borrowing the PA so I'm not sure).

[cajonezzz]

Hey Gedit- are you not taking a split from the mics already onstage?


BTW, My friend used a little Mackie Onyx with Tracktion to do a club recording of a jazz act. Pretty astonishing how good the quality was. I think you have a great start going there.

It caused me to look at Tracktion as a live capture ( backed up to an HDR) rig based around a laptop. I've been actively SELLING live multi tracking to a couple of mid sized SR companies down here, and that kind of rig ( along with a split) is small enough to move in my wifes civic, quick to set up, and solid as a rock. It's not going to replace Le Mobile- but publicity demo's , and the quick DVD projects I've been doing it's perfect.

Quick hint to all the guys doing this stuff- Hook up with some upstart Video guys and sell this as a package- There IS a market on many levels. Overhead is key.

[Gedit]

^ are you not taking a split from the mics already onstage?

I'll firewire out of the board into a laptop for this gig. I *have* taken splits for other gigs. The recording for this show is a 16-track master, not mixed. Post will be extra if they are interested.

^ Pretty astonishing how good the quality was. I think you have a great start going there.

I agree. I've used this in a lot of clubs (I also run a four-mic AUD into an R-4 at the same time just to cover my ass).

^ Hook up with some upstart Video guys and sell this as a package

Exactly what I've done. My vid guy is calling me now so I've made progress.

[nathanvacha]

Sorry to suggest this, but just in case... have you done something like this before? Have you tried using the live foh levels straight to your computer? That's only one input gain pot for sound reinforcement and recording of a guitar amp... and drums...

[Gedit]

have i used this board for both recording and reinforcement at the same time? no, i haven't. i *have* used an Onyx 1200 (?) for both without any issues.

your concern is the console's ability to support gain to both? the onyx sends pre-fade/pre-eq out thru the firewire for recording.

[valleysound]

Originally Posted by Gedit

thanks for the reply, steve.

here's the mic breakdown

1. GUITAR AMP #1 - STG. R
2. GUITAR AMP #2 – STG R
2. GUITAR D.I. - STG. R.
3. KEYBOARD AMP - CTR. STAGE
4. BASS RIG – STG L
5. GUITAR AMP #3 – STG L
6. CONGA #1 – STG R
7. CONGA #2 – STG R
8. LUCKY VOCAL MIC - STG R
9. MEGHAN VOCAL MIC - STG. CTR.
10. ELEANOR VOCAL MIC – STG. L
11. SNARE
12. RACK
13. FLOOR #1
14. FLOOR #2
15. HI-HAT
16. KICK DRUM

As far as a splitter, the same Onyx board that is FOH is also the firewire box, so recording will be done FOH and no need for a splitter. The stage is at one of the far ends of the room. PA speakers are (I think) Peavey (I'm borrowing the PA so I'm not sure).

I come from doing live sound and I'm really not sure how most recording guys set up their input list. The "standard" for live sound input lists is to start from the rhythm section on the left and move up to the vocals as viewed from Front Of House(FOH).

1 Kick
2 Snare
3 Hihat
4 Rack
5 Flr 1
6 Flr 2
7 Conga 1
8 Conga 2
9 Bass
10 Keys
11 Guitar L1
12 Guitar L2
13 Guitar R
14 Gutiar R DI
15 Vocal L
16 Vocal Cntr
17 Vocal R
You actually have 17 inputs, you counted wrong. Maybe lose a conga mic or switch to overheads instead of tom mics.

[Gedit]

nice catch.

thanks for the FOH perspective and suggestions. I'll re-arrange myself accordingly.

funny you posted this tonight. i did a multi-track at a venue earlier tonight and compared input lists for the snakes before the show with the sound engineer - his list mirrored yours.

i am using two overheads (left and right) and a kick mic for the drums, so i'm saving three mics there (leaving 14). i'll double up the congas (down to 13), and i'm adding two audience mics for ambience (back to 15) ... which fits on a 16-channel board.

[Remoteness]

Nine out of ten times the FOH input list (or any input list for that matter) looks just like the way you folks have it or have seen it.

Every now and then I get to create the input list based around how I like to mix a live show. Here’s my version based around your list with the addition of Drum OHs and the subtraction of the Hi-Hats, Conga mic and GTR DI inputs.


1. OH SR <
2. OH SL >
3. Floor Tom II
4. Floor Tom I
5. Rack Tom
6. Snare
7. Foot
8. SL Bass Rig
9. SR Conga I & II
10. SC Keyboard Amp
11. SR GTR I
12. SR GTR II
13. SL GTR III
14. Lucky SR Vocal <
15. Meghan SC Vocal ^
16. Eleanor SL Vocal >

I like to mixing like this because I want my left hand handling the Bass, Foot, Snare and Congas while my right hand handles the Keys, GTRs and Vocals.

I like it when the Snare, Foot and Bass are next to each other because I can place my left hand’s three on those inputs individually for total control of the mix blend. The right hand’s handling the vocals or GTRs in the same fashion.

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I like to mixing like this because I want my left hand handling the Bass, Foot, Snare and Congas while my right hand handles the Keys, GTRs and Vocals.

I like it when the Snare, Foot and Bass are next to each other because I can place my left hand’s three on those inputs individually for total control of the mix blend. The right hand’s handling the vocals or GTRs in the same fashion.

Do you red cap em'? I couldn't do that kind of swap w/o trying that... Cool concept, though. I'm just so used to jumping to 1 for the kik, and 9 for bass it might be a bad habit to break!

Max

[Remoteness]

Well, you can always plug the bass in channel one, then Foot, snare, etc...
But, I like the Bass, Foot and snare closer to the center of the desk.

"Red Cap them" -- I'm sorry, what do you mean by this?

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Well, you can always plug the bass in channel one, then Foot, snare, etc...
But, I like the Bass, Foot and snare closer to the center of the desk.

"Red Cap them" -- I'm sorry, what do you mean by this?

Sorry 'bout the confusion... Pulling the red caps off the subgroup faders and putting em' on the kik, bass, etc.

[Remoteness]

Ahh, I see...

I've done stuff like that. Some folks have extra colored fader caps (usually in TV facilities) for this purpose.

I sometimes use colored caps for the start of sections or group of inputs. It can be very helpful on large consoles with a lot of inputs.

Colored artist tape is great for this situation. Color coding each similar group of inputs then color coding the VCA (or DCA, etc.) fader works very well on large production dates.

[Gedit]

excellent suggestions. thanks.

steve .. i like your left-hand right-hand thinking. that's how i tend to place them as well mostly because my live work is done in poor lighting (venues) and i am capable of amazing feats of brain-farting when under stress.

color-coding groups is a great idea too. never did that before.

[Remoteness]

When color coded faders are not available you can use color coded electrical or artist tape. A small piece of tape on the fader does the trick quite well.

When the VCA group master is within the fader group, I like to color code the master fader. It makes my life behind the board more efficient since I can direct my spinal cord to grab that fader rather than my brain.

Yeah, I can adjust three fader balances with one hand just by using my fingers and you don't have to look at the desk while you're doing it.

[Gedit]

this show is coming up next saturday. i just wanted to thank everyone for their input and suggestions.

i'll take some pics and let y'all know how it goes.

george

PS ... i was in NYC last week for a show at the Knitting Factory. I got there early and was shooting the sh*t with a kid out front. He was there to intern with one of the engineers. Turns out he just graduated from IAR where I went to school back in the 70s. What a strange trip that was to meet this kid who just graduated and it's about 28 years since for me. I told the obligatory reel-to-reel horror stories and we compared notes on digital recording and how surprised we both were that audio engineering classes involved so much math. we ended up chatting for an hour or so.