Blumlein Coles 4040 - accurate enough for classical...?

[Douglas Whates]

As an aside to a question posed here - http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=76363 - what are you guys' opinions on the suitability of Coles 4040s in blumlein configuration as a sole stereo pair for classical work? Recently I've been getting sucked into the beauty of Blumlein, but haven't been able to try out the 4040s.

I have a classical guitar and flute duo recording coming up soon in a small (nice sounding) church which I'm eager to try out Blumlein on...

On a broader note, spaced omnis or blumlein (can of worms!?) ?

Douglas.

[0VU]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

As an aside to a question posed here - http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=76363 - what are you guys' opinions on the suitability of Coles 4040s in blumlein configuration as a sole stereo pair for classical work?

They're fine. Though, in common with most other conventional (non-phantom powered/active) ribbon mics, you'll need a quiet preamp with plenty of gain.

I have a classical guitar and flute duo recording coming up soon in a small (nice sounding) church which I'm eager to try out Blumlein on...

Hmmm. They'll sound fine but you'll need a really quiet preamp with lots of gain. Classical guitar and flute are not likely to make very much noise and, you could well find that, if you adopt a "classical" Blumlein technique with reasonably ambient placing, using most ordinary, low output, ribbon mics on such quiet sources, you have problems with levels. It's not always the case but if you're not using a good quality preamp, it's worth being aware of.


One small point; if you don't have the special Coles stereo bar, the 4040s can be a bit fiddly to set up in Blumlein. If you want to try Blumlein with ribbon mics, it might be worthwhile getting hold of a stereo ribbon mic such as the AEA R88, Royer SF12 or SF24 (which is active, places much lesser demands upon the preamp and seems to drive longer cables with fewer side effects). I have a Speiden SF12 (forerunner to the Royer), a couple of old B+O stereo ribbon mics - one with stock ribbons and one with RCA ribbons - and an R88. (So far I can't justify the cost of an SF24 or I'd get one for sure) Of them all, I'd probably tend towards the R88 for most applications - except anything where low profile visuals are important!

If you're thinking of buying a pair of ribbon mics specifically for Blumlein then I'd go for a stereo ribbon mic for ease of rigging. Unless of course you fall in love with the sound of the 4040s. If you forsee yourself wanting to use the mics separately then obviously a single stereo mic isn't the solution.

On a broader note, spaced omnis or blumlein (can of worms!?) ?

A jumbo, economy sized can of worms

Both techniques have their devotees and support for either can be quite vociferous. In general use I'd personally tend slightly towards non-coincident techniques, probably involving omnis, but I'm not a die hard for either camp - I just use whatever I feel suits the job in hand. For the job you describe I'd probably choose Blumlein as it's purity and clarity of image will be shown off very nicely by the small scale of the ensemble. There's also not a lot of LF in a guitar and flute combo so you shouldn't have to worry about the rather LF light response of most true (not back to back cardioid as in most switchable polar pattern) fig-8 mics.

Alternatively, if you have enough channels/tracks, and a bit of extra gear on view isn't too much of a visual problem for the audience, you could always try rigging both Blumlein and spaced omnis. Then you could get a good feel for how they compare. Given the small soundstage, a pair of omnis on the same stand as the Blumlein might work for comparison's sake, just to inform opinion. (I do this sometimes where I want to use some of the omni pair in the mix to extend the LF, add a little movement (aka instability) and width to the Blumlein image.) However, to optimise the position for the best balance possible on each, you'd be better off with the omnis on a separate stand that may be positioned independently of the Blumein.


There's so many possibilities that experimentation and experience are the only way to obtain a fair judgement of the relative merits of the various combinations of circumstances and equipment. Just keep an open mind and don't let anyone shout you down over preferring one technique over the other - or a combination. By all means gather informed opinion from others - it's a great way to avoid common (or not so common) pitfalls and gain some useful insight that otherwise might take years to discover - but try out everything you can and decide for yourself.

[T.RayBullard]

(edit, I was writing about the 4038, havent used the 4040s)

As far as spaced omnis or blumlein, I find myself(statistically, going over my past job notes) using spaced omnis (generally) on smaller ensembles and blumlein with larger ones. I use them both quite a bit, though here Ive probably used blumlein more because I have had access to some wonderful acoustic spaces.

have you considered the stereo mics???like the AKG 426B or the 422??I have them both, and really consider them both to be irreplaceable...you can find the 422 on ebay for <2000 USD...I just sent my 422 to Peter Drefahl to work his magic..

If I had to pick 3 of my pairs for a desert island, I would choose the 426B, the Gefell MK250, and my ribbon pair.

[pkautzsch]

Interestingly, I do it the other way round: spaced for larger ensembles, near-coincident for smaller ensembles, coincident (cardioids though) when mono-compatibilty is essential.
Sorry I can't say anything about ribbon mics except that a friend has seen Royer 122 with South German Radio as spots for woodwinds, brass, violas. If you go for it, let us know how they work out

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

As far as spaced omnis or blumlein, I find myself(statistically, going over my past job notes) using spaced omnis (generally) on smaller ensembles and blumlein with larger ones.

I have had the exact opposite experience. I find spaced omnis for large sources, like choir and orchestra, while I find Blumlein unsurpassed for chamber ensembles, noting that they fit nicely into the 90 deg angular restriction, something large sources do not do.

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

I have had the exact opposite experience. I find spaced omnis for large sources, like choir and orchestra, while I find Blumlein unsurpassed for chamber ensembles, noting that they fit nicely into the 90 deg angular restriction, something large sources do not do.

Interesting! I dont really have a preference, just noticed that in the past, that is how the cards have fallen for whatever reason.

[Douglas Whates]

Thanks for your replies, especially 0VU - very thoughtful.

Yes, I'd already thought about the Coles stereo bar to help set up the heavy 4040s. The thing is, I'm a bit of a stickler for good imaging, and there's something about Blumlein that appeals. I just worry that the top end and (on some sources) low end might suffer. That hasn't been mentioned? Any opinions?

In terms of gain, I think the Millennia HV-3 will do the job. Also, the guitarist and flautist are loud players who project very well.

Yes, Blumlein seems to have it's staunch followers, but I've never heard anyone voiciferously defend omni *over* Blumlein as a general rule. For example, you'll hear people say that you Blumlein might be a bad choice in bad sounding rooms, or that it can be quite hard to place correctly. But, Blumlein devotees will say that omni pairs are the spawn of the devil and should never be used, regardless.

Douglas.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

Yes, Blumlein seems to have it's staunch followers, but I've never heard anyone voiciferously defend omni *over* Blumlein as a general rule. For example, you'll hear people say that you Blumlein might be a bad choice in bad sounding rooms, or that it can be quite hard to place correctly. But, Blumlein devotees will say that omni pairs are the spawn of the devil and should never be used, regardless.

All main pair setups are hard to place correctly. The advantage of standardized setups like Blumlein is their fixed angle/the fixed "view" of the setup, e.g.Blumlein: 90°, ORTF: 96° (note that the mics form an angle of 110° but only sources within the 96° will appear "correctly" between the speakers). But this means you can't influence the distance from the source without heavily changing the width of the image. This is where non-standardized setups like spaced omnis come in: by changing the spacing, you change the "viewing" angle, like a zoom camera, and thus you can choose the distance with the direct/reverb ratio you like and then adjust the image. Same goes for MS with different amounts of S, same goes for changing the angle between XY mics.
As to omnis: I use them not for being omnis, but for being pressure transducers and thus having a very accurate bass response. They give that certain flavour of "naturalness". OTOH I've heard one of Teddy's 426 Blumlein recordings and found it very natural too.

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

This is where non-standardized setups like spaced omnis come in: by changing the spacing, you change the "viewing" angle, like a zoom camera, and thus you can choose the distance with the direct/reverb ratio you like and then adjust the image. Same goes for MS with different amounts of S, same goes for changing the angle between XY mics.

Never thought of it that way before - interesting thought!

[sonare]

I have the Royer SF12, and I do not know how this compares to the Coles, but something I have not heard anyone mention is the relative lack of transient response of a ribbon compared to a condenser. The micpre can play a big part here.

For the guitar the ribbon is nice, but for flute the lack of sparkle may not be to the flutist's liking. The obvious solution is to use the ribbons in Blumlein with perhaps only one condenser as flute accent.

Many ways to skin the cat-- that is one of them.

Rich

[JazzYoda]

I use a pair of 4038s with the AEA Blumlein bar, driving a pair of Grace M-101s. I'll put it this way: With the high gain 101s, you will hear water coursing through the radiator pipes before you hear self-noise from the preamps with 4038s. 4040s are supposedly hotter, so I would assume that any quality transformerless preamp would work great on Blumlein, unless you are doing Foley of someone scratching their head from 10 meters away!

[John Hedger]

I would also echo the need for a good quiet preamp with alot of gain if using ribbons. One thing to consider here (being a classical guitar player myself with some experience in flute/guitar duo recitals) is the inherent quietness of the guitar compared to the louder, more piercing modern flute. Of course the flute is designed an orchestral instrument and the guitar is generally more intimate in nature. Would it be possible to perhaps do some experimenting with mic placement during a dress rehearsal in that same church? I would think some closer micing on the guitar might be in order...of course without imposing on the performers or the stage setup. Good luck!

John Hedger

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by John Hedger

I would also echo the need for a good quiet preamp with alot of gain if using ribbons. One thing to consider here (being a classical guitar player myself with some experience in flute/guitar duo recitals) is the inherent quietness of the guitar compared to the louder, more piercing modern flute. Of course the flute is designed an orchestral instrument and the guitar is generally more intimate in nature. Would it be possible to perhaps do some experimenting with mic placement during a dress rehearsal in that same church? I would think some closer micing on the guitar might be in order...of course without imposing on the performers or the stage setup. Good luck!

John Hedger

A professional flautist should be able to blend properly with a guitar.

You may find a guitar mic useful if the the flute player is a knuckle-head.

[roonsbane]

Why do you want to use 4040's specifically? I was in on an A/B of the 4040's when they first came out. We set them against the royer 121's and SDC (Schoeps and DPA) as well. I personally haited these mics on cello and some other instrument which I cant remember (possibly vox). It had way too much of exactly the frequencies I would cut out. Mostly that wooly low mid crap. They are also stupidly heavy. I personally own a Royer SF24 which is incredible on so many instruments as well as a beyer m160, so I do appreciate a good ribbon. I cant imagine these 4040's being usable for any classical recording. I do have one or two engineer friends who use 4038's in their classical recording. 4038's are extremely usable for many sources. Be sure to try them out before you buy. That's all I can say.

Cameron

[John Hedger]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

A professional flautist should be able to blend properly with a guitar.

You may find a guitar mic useful if the the flute player is a knuckle-head.

It's perhaps just my opinion, but although the idea of flute with guitar seems like a wonderful thing, I find that in reality the two instruments to be a bit mismatched dynamically. That's why I personally do not seek out flautists to perform with, although they sometimes seek me out for recitals. Often, I am asked by my flute playing partner in first rehearsals to "please play louder", in which doing so would surely distort my tone.

The last recital I did with flute was last March, at a college where I teach, playing the Rodrigo Serenata scored for guitar & violin or flute. It was the flute instructor's faculty recital which was recorded live with stereo overhead room mics. There were also two pianists on this recital, also in combo with the flautist as well as solo. Now, it surely could be that the person manning the recorder was a "knucklehead"...as possibly she kept the levels exactly the same for piano/flute as for guitar/flute, but to me the recording was unuseable, except as a study tool documenting the event. I am just saying that micing could be a bit tricky and achieving a satisfying balance could be a problem, depending on the room, etc.. However, I just noticed that naturalstudio mentioned that the guitarist and flautist are both "loud players who project very well" So a Blumlein approach may work fine in this case, especially if this is a duo with alot of experience playing together. Please keep us posted on the result.

JHedger

[Douglas Whates]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. The reason for inquiring about a 4040 pair is that I already own one, so it's not all that expensive to buy another and experiment.

With regards to the flute & guitar balance thing. I have to agree with ajfarber - it's up to the musicians to balance themselves, not the engineer. I know the players well, have heard them meny times and there isn't a problem with balance. The guitrist has a strong tone and the flautist is musically sympathetic. I don't anticipate that side of the recording being an issue.

[John Hedger]

I love the naturalness of ribbons and think it would be a great choice and, although I don't have experience with them yet, the Coles 4040's look like a great piece of gear.

I would like to do some serious self-recording of guitar & lute in a chapel on a campus where I teach. It's the kind of sound where, if you hit one note on a classical guitar... it literally fills the whole room...dreamy!! because I am faculty I have free access to it on their off days. Actually, there is another local church near me that also has a magical sound for lute or guitar as well. The pastor, an excellent tenor himself, used to be my best friend in college so I think I can get in there also, no problem.

I just finished reading, "Julian Bream, A Life On The Road" which had a chapter on recording classical guitar. Bream, who was frustrated for so many years with getting a less than satisfying "dry" sound when recording guitar in London recording studios, etc.. Bream mentioned that it was just too uninspiring to play in those sterile situations. In fact, he was so frustrated, he took a year off recording. Bream finally happened upon a Jesuit chapel (Wardour Chapel) nearbye where he lived in the countryside of Wiltshire. The room was perfect for what he wanted. A quote from Bream: "For me, the chapel is almost too good, I am spoiled, because there is nothing more encouraging than to walk into the dreaded recording session and, as you tune up your guitar, realize that in fact you are making a lovely sound."The only problem they encountered were outside sounds from a nearbye gun range, rain, and birds. His RCA recording engineer used a single unit two-headed pair-stereo mic I believe. Bream also speaks of finding the right balance with near, but not too near micing. But of course those situations were not public performances.

I hope it goes well for you.

JHedger

[Douglas Whates]

Thanks for all your replies. Thought I'd post a follow up...

So, I used a sole stereo pair of Coles 4040s on that project and here are the results:

http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/misc/...lips/clip1.mp3
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/misc/...lips/clip2.mp3
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/misc/...lips/clip3.mp3
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/misc/...lips/clip4.mp3

The mic's were positioned 8 or 9 feet high and around 10 feet back from the duo in a small(ish) church. Overall I think it was very succesful and both musicians were extremely happy with the sound. When left flat, I found the sound a little dull, so I've added a gentle 3db high shelf EQ (around 7KHz and above) and 40Hz HPF. No other processing at all (except conversion to mp3!).



It'd be great to hear your opinions on this - my first foray into a purist blumlein ribbon recording. I'll be happy to answer any questions.

Douglas.

[Remoteness]

I likey!

[Recording David]

Hey Douglas - that is a LOVELY sound! The flautist is outstanding - who is she? Actually, lovely guitar playing as well.The repertoire is very cool - is that their own? It sounds very like 'modern folk classical' if you know what I mean.

Did you end up using the Millenia? Hell, what was the whole recording chain?

[David Spearritt]

Douglas, these samples show what an outstanding mic the Coles 4040 is for classical work. Well done. These have been on my shopping list for awhile now, and from these samples, they have just moved up the queue. Really sweet mics with a beautiful extended top end, and more confirmation that Blumlein is a stunning technique.

[d_fu]

Very nice music, obviously a good-sounding church, but I personally can't make myself like the kind of ambience created by conicident techniques, be it MS or XY or Blumlein... But the mics as such do a fine job there.

Daniel

[Robobo1]

Very nice... I am a fan of Blumlein, but it can be picky depending on the space... I think it was the right choice for this space!

However, I do think the recording is very wide... considering you were 10ft back... and seeing from your photo that the flautist is almost directly on axis with one of the mics... it makes me think the pair had a LARGE amount of space between them, not representitive of a concert setting... 15 to 20 feet if I've interpreted "10 feet back" correctly?

[Douglas Whates]

Thanks for your encouraging comments...

Originally Posted by Recording David

Hey Douglas - that is a LOVELY sound! The flautist is outstanding - who is she? Actually, lovely guitar playing as well.The repertoire is very cool - is that their own? It sounds very like 'modern folk classical' if you know what I mean.

Glad you like the sound. The flautist is an outstanding young Irish player by the name of Aisling Agnew. Yes, she really is something else. Incidentally, edits were kept to an absolute minimum - most of the tunes are complete takes. The repertoire is mostly arranged by the duo, but written by a variety of composers. The clips (in order) - Caffrey, Bizet, Bach, Heath.

Originally Posted by Recording David

Did you end up using the Millenia? Hell, what was the whole recording chain?

The recording chain was Coles 4040 -> Millennia HV-3 -> Lavry Blue -> Lynx AES16/Samplitude DAW.

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Douglas, these samples show what an outstanding mic the Coles 4040 is for classical work. Well done. These have been on my shopping list for awhile now, and from these samples, they have just moved up the queue. Really sweet mics with a beautiful extended top end, and more confirmation that Blumlein is a stunning technique.

Yes - I took a bit of a gamble, but I think it paid off. The sound is very close to the original sound in the church. The flautist was particularly keen for the recording to sound natural and didn't want that strident sound often heard on flute recordings - I think the Coles fitted the bill perfectly.

Originally Posted by d_fu

Very nice music, obviously a good-sounding church, but I personally can't make myself like the kind of ambience created by conicident techniques, be it MS or XY or Blumlein... But the mics as such do a fine job there.

I'm quite happy with the captured ambience (and it is quite faithful to the sound of the church), but I know what you mean. However, spaced techniques often leave me hankering for better imaging, particularly with smaller ensembles/soloists.

Originally Posted by Robobo1

Very nice... I am a fan of Blumlein, but it can be picky depending on the space... I think it was the right choice for this space!

However, I do think the recording is very wide... considering you were 10ft back... and seeing from your photo that the flautist is almost directly on axis with one of the mics... it makes me think the pair had a LARGE amount of space between them, not representitive of a concert setting... 15 to 20 feet if I've interpreted "10 feet back" correctly?

We did a lot of experimenting with mic/player placement before hitting record. I was keen for there to be a good balance between direct sounds reflected - this dictated how far back the mic's were placed. 10ft seemed perfect, allowing the instruments' sound to develop in the space. I was also keen for there to be good separation between the instruments - moving the mic's further in would have dried up the sound, so I asked the players to sit a little further apart. At this point, the instruments really snapped into focus. In reality, it was only a foot or so further apart than they sit in concert. I'd say their chairs were no more than 10ft apart, with the main body of the sound coming from within that space.

Keep your comments coming! Do you think the sound is ready for release? Any other recommendations, questions, etc. let me know...

[ISedlacek]

Oh wow, that sounds really sweet and beautifully spacy ! Paganini playing on flute ?
Maybe the guitar could be sometimes tiny bit louder to be in pair with the flute ...

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

The flautist is an outstanding young Irish player by the name of [URL="http://www.aislingagnew.com"]Aisling Agnew

Just a minor point, you could tell her that mp3 files are in 96 kbit, not 96 kHz... (http://aislingagnew.com/audio.html)

Do you think the sound is ready for release? Any other recommendations, questions, etc. let me know...

I personally wouldn't release it as it is. There is a tad of hiss somewhere, and as Ivo said, the guitar is a little bit distant...

Daniel

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Oh wow, that sounds really sweet and beautifully spacy ! Paganini playing on flute ?
Maybe the guitar could be sometimes tiny bit louder to be in pair with the flute ...

Nice to know you appreciate the sound. The piece you are thinking is Paganini is probably Bizet's Carmen Fantasie (originally for flute and piano).

With regards to the balance of guitar to flute, the dynamic of the ensemble on the recording represents exactly the dynamic heard in real life. Indeed, in some other passages, there are moments where the guitar is perhaps too loud. This is the nature of flute and guitar duo - it's a fine balance and in general I think the players got it bang on.

I have heard a number of flute and guitar duo recording where the guitar seems to have been boosted making for an unnatural sound.

Although there are parts in my recording where the guitar might seem a little quiet in comparison, I feel it remains natural sounding and, for me, that's the most important thing. The guitarist plays loud when he needs to!

With regards to the hiss on the recording, there's not much I can do about that, but I'd appreciate some feedback on this issue. For a number of years I've been obsessed with getting as quiet as possible a background noise. With ribbons and the high gain required on flute and guitar, a super-low background noise simply isn't possible. Also, there was a bit of buzz coming from somewhere which I was unable to eliminate. The dynamics on this recording are absolutely true to life. I have tried playing back the recording at real-life volumes and, although the background noise *is* noticeable, I don't find it to be obtrusive. Maybe it's because I've been listening to a lot of vinyl lately? At the risk of getting off topic, there's a great quote from Keith Jarrett which struck home to me recently...

"I recall, in 1981, when digital was getting started, Manfred and I were in the studio recording a solo piano thing to digital and analog both—same mikes, same feed, only the recording devices were different. We listened to them A-B, A-B, A-B, and I said, ‘Man, uhhhhhhhh.’ He said, ‘I like how quiet it is on the digital version.’ And I said, ‘Well, yeah, but it isn’t that quiet in the studio.’ How realistic is that? What you got was blackness in the background, but it was synthetic blackness to me. I was hearing it as an absence, like a vacuum cleaner came in after every note and went schlurrrp. He thought it was great, and it was his company, so.... He turned digital way, way, way before I might have done it. I might have done it last year [laughs], if at all."

What are other people's opinion of the background noise in my recording? Obtrusive? Are you able to live with it? The fact is, there's nothing I can do about it now (noise reduction and it's washy artefacts isn't an option), but I'd still be curious to hear your opinions.

[Recording David]

Hi Douglas,

I listened to the recordings on my internet machine, which is an eMac with not good speakers - so for me the hiss wasn't really an issue.

However, for removing said hiss I've been using Waves X-Noise (in the Resoration bundle) - it is very good but does not work straight out of the box and I have to use EQ to restore the HF that it seems to remove. With a bit of work it removes virtually all background noise. Waves have brought out a new noise removing plug in (I can't remember the name) but the reviews suggest that it craps all over the plugin I have! I would check it out - these tools really are amazing. Have a listen to this:

http://www.i-record.co.uk/mp3/sugarloafmountain.mp3

This was quite noisy originally - the soloist had quite loud breathing. X-Noise removed pretty much all of the noise and I was quite impressed!

As far as releasing it as is: personally I think, although the sound of the venue is quite nice, it's a little dry for me. I would add a touch of Altiverb or whatever good reverb you use - but YMMV.

BTW I checked out your website - we have quite similar backgrounds before we came to the recording world!

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

What are other people's opinion of the background noise in my recording? Obtrusive? Are you able to live with it? The fact is, there's nothing I can do about it now (noise reduction and it's washy artefacts isn't an option), but I'd still be curious to hear your opinions.

I think your recording sounds great and very natural. I would have no problem releasing it as it is. thumbsup

balance preference is totally a individual thing. I like the way it is.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

The piece you are thinking is Paganini is probably Bizet's Carmen Fantasie (originally for flute and piano).

Sure, I did not mean the piece was written by Paganini, but I refered to the highly virtuosic flute playing - as if Paganini started playing flute ...

I will listen to it in the studio (on B&W Matrix 801) ... and can share more impressions as far as the noise etc is concerned