Blumlein Coles 4040 - accurate enough for classical...?

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Sure, I did not mean the piece was written by Paganini, but I refered to the highly virtuosic flute playing - as if Paganini started playing flute ...

Ah, okay! Yes, some of the playing is staggeringly virtuosic.

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I will listen to it in the studio (on B&W Matrix 801) ... and can share more impressions as far as the noise etc is concerned

I'd certainly appreciate that.

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by Recording David

I listened to the recordings on my internet machine, which is an eMac with not good speakers - so for me the hiss wasn't really an issue.

However, for removing said hiss I've been using Waves X-Noise (in the Resoration bundle) - it is very good but does not work straight out of the box and I have to use EQ to restore the HF that it seems to remove. With a bit of work it removes virtually all background noise. Waves have brought out a new noise removing plug in (I can't remember the name) but the reviews suggest that it craps all over the plugin I have! I would check it out - these tools really are amazing. Have a listen to this:

http://www.i-record.co.uk/mp3/sugarloafmountain.mp3

This was quite noisy originally - the soloist had quite loud breathing. X-Noise removed pretty much all of the noise and I was quite impressed!

I think I've heard that clip before - certainly there is very little hiss for a guitar record. I've seen Gary Ryan play a few times - I'm sure he was a joy to record. As far as breathing is concerned, it doesn't concern me at all - adds to the humanity of the recording. I've used X-Noise before and slightly prefer my current noise reduction plug-in of choice, Voxengo's Redunoise - it has more tweakability. However, I'd still prefer to use nothing at all and have only used noise reduction for sample libraries.

Originally Posted by Recording David

As far as releasing it as is: personally I think, although the sound of the venue is quite nice, it's a little dry for me. I would add a touch of Altiverb or whatever good reverb you use - but YMMV.

I guess it's a matter of taste. Personally I prefer a slightly drier acoustic for this type of material. We had the option of using a mich larger, brighter hall, but chose the church for its more intimate sound. I think it quite suits the chamber aspect of the repertoire.

Originally Posted by Recording David

BTW I checked out your website - we have quite similar backgrounds before we came to the recording world!

Which website (I have so many!). Shoot me an e-mail and tell me some more about yourself - it's always good to compare notes!

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

I think your recording sounds great and very natural. I would have no problem releasing it as it is. thumbsup

balance preference is totally a individual thing. I like the way it is.

Thanks for the comments!

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

With regards to the balance of guitar to flute, the dynamic of the ensemble on the recording represents exactly the dynamic heard in real life.

To my ears, it's not mainly an issue of volume, but of localization, the guitar seems further away... Were they both sitting or was the flute player standing up (sounds like that to me)...?

Sorry to be less supportive than others, but I like the (coincident stereo) ambience even less with speakers (Genelec 1019A) than with headphones..

Daniel

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by d_fu

To my ears, it's not mainly an issue of volume, but of localization, the guitar seems further away... Were they both sitting or was the flute player standing up (sounds like that to me)...?

Sorry to be less supportive than others, but I like the (coincident stereo) ambience even less with speakers (Genelec 1019A) than with headphones..

Daniel

No, both players were seated and at the same distance from the mic's. What you've picked up on is the natural acoustic affect of these instruments - the flute is more direct, while the sound of the guitar emanates from a larger area. No need to apologise - everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[ISedlacek]

So I listened in the studio in the serious listening conditions. It sounds nice. I was not troubled by some noise. Maybe the only thing is that the instruments tend to sound somehow too much on L/R sides to my ears, preventing more natural blend in the middle. And simlilarly as Daniel, I also think that a tiny post-touch of more generous reverb would do it good .

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

So I listened in the studio in the serious listening conditions. It sounds nice. I was not troubled by some noise. Maybe the only thing is that the instruments tend to sound somehow too much on L/R sides to my ears, preventing more natural blend in the middle. And simlilarly as Daniel, I also think that a tiny post-touch of more generous reverb would do it good .

this is one of the beautiful things about blumlein, great imaging, and without a doubt, the most realistic configuration there is.!! I like the dry sound better with this recording.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

And simlilarly as Daniel, I also think that a tiny post-touch of more generous reverb would do it good .

No, I didn't say anything like that... I was referring more to the quality of the ambience than to the quantity. And I don't think this recording is dry at all, on the contrary...

I just generally prefer the kind of ambience created by e.g. spaced omnis to that of coincident setups, even if localisation may not be quite as precise.
My approach to an ensemble like this would have probably started with a pair of KM 131 (small AB) and a spot mic each... But that's OT...

Daniel

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by d_fu

No, I didn't say anything like that... I was referring more to the quality of the ambience than to the quantity. And I don't think this recording is dry at all, on the contrary...

Sorry, it was David ...

[rwhitney]

There's a sample of Blumlein 4040s on a piano (classical piece) in the "show and tell" forum: Coles 4040 examples

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

So I listened in the studio in the serious listening conditions. It sounds nice. I was not troubled by some noise. Maybe the only thing is that the instruments tend to sound somehow too much on L/R sides to my ears, preventing more natural blend in the middle. And simlilarly as Daniel, I also think that a tiny post-touch of more generous reverb would do it good .

That's good to know that the noise wasn't bothersome. With regards to the distance between the instruments - yes, it is a little wider than many recordings. It was a conscious decision, but I'm still in two minds as to whether I would prefer it narrower. It's unusual, but I like it (almost reminds me of some hard panned jazz recordings!).

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by d_fu

No, I didn't say anything like that... I was referring more to the quality of the ambience than to the quantity. And I don't think this recording is dry at all, on the contrary...

I just generally prefer the kind of ambience created by e.g. spaced omnis to that of coincident setups, even if localisation may not be quite as precise.
My approach to an ensemble like this would have probably started with a pair of KM 131 (small AB) and a spot mic each... But that's OT...

One thing worth noting - I find that Blumlein recordings generally sound much better with the monitors towed in. Also, the distance between the listener and each speaker should be equal to the distance between the speakers (i.e. an equilateral triangle).

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

One thing worth noting - I find that Blumlein recordings generally sound much better with the monitors towed in. Also, the distance between the listener and each speaker should be equal to the distance between the speakers (i.e. an equilateral triangle).

Yep.Blumlein is at its best when the playback speakers are at 90 degrees.

[0VU]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

Yep.Blumlein is at its best when the playback speakers are at 90 degrees.

Erm...Call me an old traditionalist but equilateral triangles have 60 degree angles.

[dingo]

Douglas, very well done. I wouldn't change a thing.

Thanks for posting the clips.

[audiothings]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

Do you think the sound is ready for release?

hello douglas

firstly... my compliments on (imho) an excellent recording.

as for it being ready for release... if the music is getting through and you think its worth it... man just go for it. I always see it as 'music' that we are trying to present, not 'recordings'.

respect,

[Douglas Whates]

Thank you all for your encouraging comments. After a few more very minor tweaks I'm very happy with the results. The artwork is done and the whole package will be off to the duplicators on Wednesday.

For those interested, I'll post here when the album's released (before the end of the month!).

Cheers,

Douglas.

[Douglas Whates]

The album is now available to purchase.

http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/shop/

You'll see it at the bottom left under "Quick links".

Thanks for all your feedback along the way!

Douglas.

[Cucco]

Originally Posted by 0VU

Erm...Call me an old traditionalist but equilateral triangles have 60 degree angles.

And heaven forbid a speaker is toed in as much as 60 degrees...Could you imagine just how tight that sweet spot would be?

I agree Blumlein is a great pattern, but I also find that it works best over a specifically configured pair of speakers and this is why I don't use it that often. M/S and AB seem to be able to translate over more systems than others. (The same reason I won't use binaural except for use in surrounds.)

J.

[Douglas Whates]

Originally Posted by Cucco

And heaven forbid a speaker is toed in as much as 60 degrees...Could you imagine just how tight that sweet spot would be?

I agree Blumlein is a great pattern, but I also find that it works best over a specifically configured pair of speakers and this is why I don't use it that often. M/S and AB seem to be able to translate over more systems than others. (The same reason I won't use binaural except for use in surrounds.)

While it's true that it does translate better over specifically configured speakers, Blumlein also translates well to less than perfectly configured speakers. I would argue that it translates better than AB due to mono compatability. AB doesn't create less of a sweet spot, it just doesn't really have a sweet spot because the imaging is comparatively fuzzy.

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

While it's true that it does translate better over specifically configured speakers, Blumlein also translates well to less than perfectly configured speakers. I would argue that it translates better than AB due to mono compatability. AB doesn't create less of a sweet spot, it just doesn't really have a sweet spot because the imaging is comparatively fuzzy.

I use blumlein much more than A-B(also use Jecklin a lot) . Given a good acoustic(which I have 90% of the time) I will choose blumlein every single time. It is my favorite technique, without a doubt. The imaging is unrivaled.

[Douglas Whates]

UPDATE!

A few "behind the scenes" photos and a wee video of this session is available on Matt's (the album's guitarist) website.

http://www.matthewmcallister.com/beh...cital-sessions

Enjoy!

[mosrite]

great mic, reluctantly selling mine on ebay uk if anyones interested...

[Blacky]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

(edit, I was writing about the 4038, havent used the 4040s)

As far as spaced omnis or blumlein, I find myself(statistically, going over my past job notes) using spaced omnis (generally) on smaller ensembles and blumlein with larger ones. I use them both quite a bit, though here Ive probably used blumlein more because I have had access to some wonderful acoustic spaces.

have you considered the stereo mics???like the AKG 426B or the 422??I have them both, and really consider them both to be irreplaceable...you can find the 422 on ebay for <2000 USD...I just sent my 422 to Peter Drefahl to work his magic..

If I had to pick 3 of my pairs for a desert island, I would choose the 426B, the Gefell MK250, and my ribbon pair.

HI! You work with the Coles 4040 and my question is can i take the A-designs MP-2 or the Voxbox for enough pre? To me it looks like the 4040 have less power at other ribbons?
Thanks

[DanRock101]

Great old thread here! From another classical guitarist (me!), I think the recording sounds great, very natural! It sounds like I'm at a recital at music school again! Don't change a thing! The 4040's rule!