Recording Chamber Music

[king2070lplaya]

Originally Posted by base2011

Reposting from incorrect location
Hello one and all. I'm in pre-production as executive producer (it's my brainchild) for a new project. The project is a anthology of a under unknown classical composer. I will be recording every possible scenario in classical music; from solo instrument to full stage opera. The project has a timeline set for 3 years of recording.
Compositions for solo to quintet compositions, I'm planning on remote gear. Data recording @ 96Khz, and maybe be considering output to vinyl. Also would like to record an 2trk analogue!, if it can go mobile.
So I'm looking for suggestion for a "fail safe" method of data storage,
suggestion for a portable I/O. ????
and suggestion a to approach in general.
Thanks
Base

There's quite a few directions you can go with this:

If you want a fail-safe, standalone option, there are fantastic offerings from Sound Devices, Nagra, and other manufacturers that can give you between 2- and 8+ tracks of recording capability in a single box. Easy, often compact, and generally the safest bet.

A computer and interface combo can give you a bit more flexibility, at the expense of uber portability and (sometimes!) stability (pleasedon'tshootmecomputerpeepsimoneofyou!). Pair a good FireWire-equipped laptop with a device from Metric Halo, Prism (top end) or RME and you've got a great, scalable solution on your hands.

You are going to want to use some kind of backup recorder for safety, so your solution may employ both kinds listed above. My personal rig includes a 16ch laptop/interface/converter combo tracking all incoming signals, and then my live 2 track mix on a separate recorder. That way I've got backup, and the ability to remix from the multitrack if need be.

One really popular solution right now is an RME UFX interface, which offers you the ability to track to your computer, and simultaneously record the multitrack to an external USB device. Backup in 1 unit!

You can add onto these devices outboard preamps if you so desire, but each brand listed offers at least quality clean preamps (the Nagra, Prism and MH units offer outstanding examples of clean pres!)

Welcome to our world! Hire one of us if you need some help!

[boojum]

Kevin's suggestion of an all-in-one box such as Sound Devices or Nagra is a very good bet. The fewer pieces of hardware the less opportunity of failure and greater ease of setup and use.

Microphones will be a hurdle. How wide is your wallet? A recorder like Sound Devices 788T is ~$6K, Nagra VI a bit more. Microphones can run from ~$150 for the well received and quite good offerings from Line Audio on up to Schoeps, Neumann, DPA and Sennheiser (the standard "Big Four") at ~$1,100+ each and the other excellent mics like Gefell, AKG, etc for about the same. Then there will be the problem of getting these mics to the spot where they will sound as good as they are. You could possibly do it, but I would suggest that you either hire a pro, shanghai a very good amateur or start cracking the books and loitering around here to learn all you can. If recording were easy there would be no professionals. The customer would do it himself with success. But he cannot. The difference between good and great can be a matter of inches at the session and great talent when mixing. And it is plainly audible. No sense of going to all that effort for a bad result. That is kind of like knitting a sweater with cheap wool.

So, who is the composer?

[John Willett]

Portable recorders:
Nagra VI and the SD 788T have ready been mentioned. I would also add the AETA 4MinX to the list.

If you want to stereo only, then the SD 702 and the Nagra LB would be the ones to look at.

Microphones:
My top five have always been: DPA, Gefell, Neumann, Schoeps and Sennheiser.

For chamber music I tend to use an MS pair of MKH 30/40 - alternatively an ORTF pair of MKH 40 or 8040 are good, also a stereo pair of Gefell M300 or Neumann KM 184 are also good.

[surflounge]

since we're spending $'s then include Zaxcom Nomad or Maxx
and a Soundfield DSF mic system

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by surflounge

since we're spending $'s then include Zaxcom Nomad or Maxx
and a Soundfield DSF mic system

I'm not sure I would include Zaxcom at all for music recording, but I would include the Soundfield (I have an SPS200). The AETA 4MinX and (from this month) the Nagra VI both have A-format / B-format monitoring for the Soundfield mic.

[base2011]

Originally Posted by boojum

So, who is the composer?

I cannot mention the name of composer in order to keep proprietary rights in my control. I'm still in the stage of planning the concept for the composer's revival. Recording is still down the road. The composer has over 130 pieces of work, from chamber to grand opera and currently no one has recorded the bulk of his work Thank you much some great advice Kevin. As the project gets under way, you guys and girls will be hearing a lot from me!

[surflounge]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I'm not sure I would include Zaxcom at all for music recording, but I would include the Soundfield (I have an SPS200). The AETA 4MinX and (from this month) the Nagra VI both have A-format / B-format monitoring for the Soundfield mic.

What is the delay (latency) from analog input to analog output through the AETA 4MinX?

Sound Devices claims for it's 7-Series recorders:
@ 48 kHz – 1.47 ms
@ 96 kHz – 0.75 ms
@ 192 kHz – 0.23 m

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by base2011

I cannot mention the name of composer in order to keep proprietary rights in my control. I'm still in the stage of planning the concept for the composer's revival. Recording is still down the road. The composer has over 130 pieces of work, from chamber to grand opera and currently no one has recorded the bulk of his work Thank you much some great advice Kevin. As the project gets under way, you guys and girls will be hearing a lot from me!

I am not trying to be funny but maybe there is a reason none of this person's works have been recorded?

I started on a similar project a couple of years ago with a very good producer. We were going to record the total output of a composer's lifetime work. We did a couple of chamber pieces to start off the project but they received very lack luster reviews for the music and the project was scrapped. We did get some very nice reviews for the recording and playing.

There is a good reason why everyone records Beethoven, Brahms and Bach and why no one records some other composers from the same time periods. But then look what happened to Antonio Salieri after the film Mozart came out. There was a Renaissance of interest in his works.

As to archival storage. I know others here will laugh but the Library of Congress still says magnetic tape is the best long term archival storage media. (just make sure you use tape that is not prone to the "sticky tape syndrome"). Other than that archival CDs guaranteed to last 100 years and plenty of different back ups of all the material on different media. Maybe read this article before deciding The Myth Of The 100-Year CD-Rom

[Dzoing]

Originally Posted by surflounge

What is the delay (latency) from analog input to analog output through the AETA 4MinX?

Sound Devices claims for it's 7-Series recorders:
@ 48 kHz – 1.47 ms
@ 96 kHz – 0.75 ms
@ 192 kHz – 0.23 m

4minX got D-sub analog direct pre outs, so latency is 0 that way.

[surflounge]

Originally Posted by Dzoing

4minX got D-sub analog direct pre outs, so latency is 0 that way.

I'm sold on it! Thanks.
wait... $6,200?
might be worth saving for a Aaton : Cantar-X2
or less for Roland R-88

[RobAnderson]

Everything from chamber music to full blown opera? I hate to rain on a very nice party here, but the different recording situations described in the original post would require vastly different approaches.

But then a mention of only solo to quintet compositions; straight to analogue 2-track and vinyl with a PCM multi-track backup? Something doesn't seem quite straight here.

Based on the post, I am going to venture a guess that the OP doesn't have too much practical experience with classical music recording (forgive me if I am wrong base2011). Don't just go by what you are reading in audiophile magazines. Get someone with experience on board who can help you make the technical decisions so that you can concentrate on managing the artistic side and realizing your vision.

My advice to the OP: don't go it alone with a 788 - use that money to hire someone who has the necessary chops and kit as a partner in your enterprise.

A well-qualified person will cost you a bunch of money, but it will end up costing far less than buying gear, renting halls, paying musicians, and ending up with a mediocre (or worse) result.

[fifthcircle]

I think Rob has nailed it here... Sorry to be blunt, but if you're asking questions like this, you should be asking if you are really qualified to be engineering the recordings of this music. If you want to do it justice, you should think about bringing in somebody who really knows what they are doing.

Chamber recordings are one thing. In the scheme of recording, they aren't that difficult and as long as you don't do anything really stupid, you'd get a decent result. (especially read the multitude of threads here on how to record these ensembles- there is a wealth of knowledge). If you're talking opera, however, that is a totally different beast. Operas are extremely difficult to record well- even when you have a large quantity of gear available. When I was recording staged opera regularly, I was looking at 16 mic setups (sometimes more), a live mix to stereo for broadcast and a big mix in post- the average of which was 15-20 hours of work. Large ensemble works (orchestras, etc...) fall in between...

I applaud your dedication to this composer's work and your desire to record the works. I would caution you to be realistic, however, in how you decide to go about doing it. If you are the executive producer, that means you also have to keep the final product in mind. Will an audiophile want to purchase your work? If the answer is no or even maybe, then you need to reassess your procedures.

--Ben

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by richgilb

Any reviews and demo info for this AETA 4 Minx anywhere? Seen s short youtube clip but could do with more detail.

At £3249, this becomes almost affordable for me (if I sell about 2 grands worth of gear). It looks like it has 4 preamps and if I had a pair of digital mics to support my Soundfield SPS200, I could record 6 mics simultaneously.

I have sent you a PM on this.

[dbssound1]

I have to agree with one of the above posts. As a classical engineer who does all of the configurations you describe, I would spend your money on hiring a proper engineer with all the right tools. you will save money and end up with a better result in the end.

If you are going to buy gear, I reccomend the Metric Halo gear. It is solid and sounds great.

Also, if you are going to be recording a compendium of work like this with such a grand scale, you should truly consider recording it at at least 192 and releasing it on Blu-ray audio, or go DSD (though that would not be my recommendation.

As to why it has not been recorded before, it happens all the time. I just released a Never before recorded Dominico Scarlatti operetta.

I truly wish you the best with this ambitious project! it could be awesome!

[base2011]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

I am not trying to be funny but maybe there is a reason none of this person's works have been recorded?

I started on a similar project a couple of years ago with a very good producer. We were going to record the total output of a composer's lifetime work. We did a couple of chamber pieces to start off the project but they received very lack luster reviews for the music and the project was scrapped. We did get some very nice reviews for the recording and playing.

There is a good reason why everyone records Beethoven, Brahms and Bach and why no one records some other composers from the same time periods. But then look what happened to Antonio Salieri after the film Mozart came out. There was a Renaissance of interest in his works.

As to archival storage. I know others here will laugh but the Library of Congress still says magnetic tape is the best long term archival storage media. (just make sure you use tape that is not prone to the "sticky tape syndrome"). Other than that archival CDs guaranteed to last 100 years and plenty of different back ups of all the material on different media. Maybe read this article before deciding The Myth Of The 100-Year CD-Rom

The project is a retrospective of a African American composer of the early 20th century. While doing research for a project to get begin, I noticed that many of the major labels ignore many of the lesser know composers and I am hoping to generate an awareness of many unknown American composers in general.
Looking to start recording solo to quartet compositions and change recording strategies for bigger composition

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

I know others here will laugh but the Library of Congress still says magnetic tape is the best long term archival storage media. (just make sure you use tape that is not prone to the "sticky tape syndrome")[/url]

Could not agree more. By using analog I reduce the cost of digital rental equipment plus it sounds warmer. Thanks for you input
Base2011

[base2011]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Everything from chamber music to full blown opera? I hate to rain on a very nice party here, but the different recording situations described in the original post would require vastly different approaches.

But then a mention of only solo to quintet compositions; straight to analogue 2-track and vinyl with a PCM multi-track backup? Something doesn't seem quite straight here.

Based on the post, I am going to venture a guess that the OP doesn't have too much practical experience with classical music recording (forgive me if I am wrong base2011). Don't just go by what you are reading in audiophile magazines. Get someone with experience on board who can help you make the technical decisions so that you can concentrate on managing the artistic side and realizing your vision.

My advice to the OP: don't go it alone with a 788 - use that money to hire someone who has the necessary chops and kit as a partner in your enterprise.

A well-qualified person will cost you a bunch of money, but it will end up costing far less than buying gear, renting halls, paying musicians, and ending up with a mediocre (or worse) result.

Point well taken and some great advice. A bid about my background, I have worked at a broadcast cable for 15 years until we (team of 5) were unceremoniously were laid off last year. This is new venture and personal love of the music and production for me to execute. I plan on the recording of solos to quartet composition myself. For the large scale production, will i look to generate enough interest to engage an opera company(s) in various city with some underwriting grants to secure the deal. It's all in the conceptual stages and now I have my work and passion cut out for me. Thanks for your valuable input, rob
base

[boojum]

Originally Posted by base2011

By using analog I reduce the cost of digital rental equipment plus it sounds warmer. Thanks for you input
Base2011

All you need now is quality analog with good heads, aligned, and a good supply of quality tape. "Warmer" is open to discussion. It does have less dynamic range and can be a total pain to edit and mix. I understand that the first generation of tape is lovely. I have been impressed by tape playback but not in the last 30 years. When you look at the whole life cycle of the project I think you will gain a greater appreciation of digital. But then again maybe you will not.

It is an ambitious project and I thoroughly understand your being excited to do it. It should bring some very interesting music to a larger audience, hopefully. I sure hope you keep us in the loop.

[RobAnderson]

Not sure how going analogue will save you money. If you are recording to 1/4" at 30 ips, you're looking at about $50 per 16 minutes of recording.

Unless we're talking about a Nagra. I think that's about $400 for a half hour of tape at 3.75 ips.

To put that in perspective, I think a Sound Devices 702 can be hired at around $100/day.

Perhaps you already own a tape machine? A Nagra is one thing if you already have it, but lugging a typical R-T-R recorder on-site is probably not going to be much fun.

Now, archiving on analogue tape or really good first press vinyl might be an excellent idea, but that's another story.

[John Willett]

For recording Chamber Music I use a Nagra VI, though I would consider the new AETA 4MinX equal quality.

Using an AETA MIXY and recording to a laptop is also worth considering; though, personally, I don't like using computers for master recording.

[RobAnderson]

Originally Posted by John Willett

For recording Chamber Music I use a Nagra VI, though I would consider the new AETA 4MinX equal quality.

Using an AETA MIXY and recording to a laptop is also worth considering; though, personally, I don't like using computers for master recording.

Nagra VI is digital tho'. The OP seems to like the idea of analogue tape, so I should have specified that I was talking about the older reel-to-reel Nagra's.

[dbssound1]

Originally Posted by base2011

Point well taken and some great advice. A bid about my background, I have worked at a broadcast cable for 15 years until we (team of 5) were unceremoniously were laid off last year. This is new venture and personal love of the music and production for me to execute. I plan on the recording of solos to quartet composition myself. For the large scale production, will i look to generate enough interest to engage an opera company(s) in various city with some underwriting grants to secure the deal. It's all in the conceptual stages and now I have my work and passion cut out for me. Thanks for your valuable input, rob
base

I think you really should consider some of the earlier posts regarding hiring an engineer. I want to see your project and vision succeed, but you need to really put your best foot forward with the smaller chamber pieces. I mean no disrespect, but I think that starting your thread with talking about recording at 96k only illustrates your further need to understand the classical listener and what it takes to do a truly great classical recording that will achieve the critical success that this kind of project needs to drive sales.

I am not doubting your ability at all, but there is a large difference between broadcast cable and commercial classical recordings. That is not to say you can not do it, and I and I'm sure others here will be happy to give you all their expertise to assist, but I will tell you to do a truly great chamber or solo recording where so much is exposed, it can be as hard or harder to produce something that will have all of the critics and audiophiles raving than doing a larger ensemble.

Again, I want you to succeed, and think this sounds very cool. When planing, also take into consideration your start and end date. Something this big could have GRAMMY written all over it, but you can only submit recordings that were done within the last 3 years, so you would need to complete and release within that time frame for that kind of consideration.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Nagra VI is digital tho'. The OP seems to like the idea of analogue tape, so I should have specified that I was talking about the older reel-to-reel Nagra's.

I know, but, personally, I would master digitally and then archive on analogue if you want the analogue sound. You also don't have all the analogue compromises in the master.

[RobAnderson]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I know, but, personally, I would master digitally and then archive on analogue if you want the analogue sound. You also don't have all the analogue compromises in the master.

John: for me, you are preaching to the choir


(sorry - couldn't resist)


I heartily agree with you. Not sure if the OP might need more convincing.

[Don S]

To get professional results, you need to hire a professional. Sorry.

[laurentius]

Just wanted to add my 0.2 cents about the 4Minx:

The sound quality is great . The routing options are endless.
But there some drawbacks:
It boots up forever.
The menu is very fiddly, hard to read and quite annoying (to me)
No track naming.
The Headphone routing options could be better.

But being a DSP- based recorder/mixer, you can expect a lot of bug fixes and upgrades.

So i would say:
For location recording - YES
For Film/ Tele - No (t yet)

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by John Willett

...I would master digitally and then archive on analogue if you want the analogue sound.

Huh? You don't have "the analogue sound" (whatever that is) if you have any "D's" in the recording chain.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Huh? You don't have "the analogue sound" (whatever that is) if you have any "D's" in the recording chain.

Really?

Tony Faulkner once commented on a recording that he made once (many years ago now) that was highly praised for its excellent analogue sound.

But it was a complete digital recording, other than it was mastered to 1/4" tape at the end.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Really? ... But it was a complete digital recording, other than it was mastered to 1/4" tape at the end.

Cheeky devil.

[Richard Crowley]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Cheeky devil.

No, simply evidence that most of what we attribute to some "sound" or other is psychosomatic.

The OP has never mentioned any sort of budget. I seriously question how realistic any of this is.