Alto Flute Overdubs - one mic or two?

[Blatboy]

Hey there! I'm doing a session today recording Alto Flute... 3 parts overdubbed as if there were 3 in the section. It's for a crime jazz/Henry Mancini-ish/Hollywood in the early 60's type soundtrack. I've heard some people say they record alto flute with 2 mics... one near the mouthpiece and one near the other end for the lower notes.

any opinions? Right now I'm leaning towards one mic, as it's half as many tracks and no chance of phase problems, but at the same time, am I really missing out on something here?

Any one have experience with this?

Thanks.

[matyas]

I got some great luck recording it with a Royer R-121 into a Millennia tube pre. Single mic, a few feet above the middle of the instrument. I don't like miking a flute near the mouthpiece - too much breath noise.

[ajfarber]

Just use 1 mic on each player. If you have a tube LDC use that. Have the mic about 1 foot from the flute's head joint, you'll be fine.

Is crime jazz all the rage now? I've just bgeen composing some crime jazz for a library, so I'm curious.

[ajfarber]

Oh, Hawkes, It's you. Call, email or PM me.

[Remoteness]

Educate me... What's Crime Jazz?

[JazzYoda]

I'm still assimilating the definition of this but so far have come up with this much:

Crime Jazz: Music taken from crime or spy films and television shows that is instrumental in nature and has some orchestrational and harmonic relation to jazz. The intent is to produce a similar feeling that the listener has upon hearing tunes like "James Bond Theme", "Soul Bossa Nova" (Austin Powers Theme), "The Pink Panther Theme". et al.

Obviously inclusive of music only similar to the above, but not directly taken from any previous film or show.

[dementedchord]

im assuming you have acces to a preety good room so given that ...,. i would use an m-s pair back (dependant on the room) 6-8 ft back... then a sdc fairly close onthe main body (unleess you want some breath)...the trick is to get the close mic time aligned with the m-s pair....

[ajfarber]

Never use 2 mics when 1 will do.-RVG

[classicalrecord]

have to agree with the last post-- one of the first guidelines i ever received-- use as few mics as possible. especially since we're talking about using three tracks to create a section-- stick with one mic and you can pan to taste to create stereo. personally i've had good success with a sdc on flute-- experiment with distance as it will change the tone to be sure.

[Robobo1]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Never use 2 mics when 1 will do.-RVG

Grin... you hear with two ears... so record with two mics

XY/Blumlein baby!

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Robobo1

Grin... you hear with two ears... so record with two mics

XY/Blumlein baby!

Yeah sure, and you simultaneously stand in front of every instrument in an orchestra so as to hear each individual instrument with two ears. No, you sit in the audience in one seat. The trumpet sounds like it's over there ( gesturing with my hand to spot on stage ) and the oboe is over there, etc...

I always hated those jazz recordings where the piano is fully panned L-R and so are the drums. Where am I sitting to hear this band? Am I on the piano bench? And why does it sound as if the high-hat is 12 feet away from the floor-tom? Are there two drummers, or is there a giant octopus in the rhythm section?

Never use two mics when one will do. Use two mics when only two will do.

XY/Blumlein is cool for in front of an orchestra , small chamber group, horn section etc... But for alto flutes recorded as an overdub to be inserted into a mix that sounds like an old Mancini thing? I think Blumlein, M/S, or any other stereo mic-ing might sound too big and over the top.

Consider that I may be correct or I may be full of shit.

[bongo]

I'd try a Royer 122 if you got one.

[Robobo1]

Depends on the recording, right?

Sure, if you are recording a large ensemble, use a stereo pair with (individual) spot mics. The stereo pair will give you the image and you fill in presence as needed with the spots.

But if you are doing a modern-day jazz recording, as it sounds like he may be doing, where you may decide to record with some degree of isolation (a foam block or two maybe) and are close micing, use two mics (a near-coincident pair) on each instrument for spatial cues. The instruments will open right up!

Where you pan is your business... just because you mic the piano ORTF or that sax Blumlein doesn't mean they are both panned wide! But that sax sure has alot more space around it now...

I definitely don't always agree with hard-panned pianos and drums... but as I type this I'm listening to Brad Mehldau's 'House on Hill' and both the piano and drums are hard panned. It's a recording that sounds like a recording... it's a little surreal, but that's ok. The music is geat! Check out Jim Anderson's stuff... none of his recordings (that I know) are realistic, they are over the top, but they still sound like great recordings! If I want to hear somethign that sounds like a live performance, I'll go buy a live disc.

In the end, the music is exciting either way...

I think we may are both assuming different approaches to his session. And therefore comparing apples to oranges! If given a session like you describe, I would NEVER take the above approach. A traditional stereo pair, flanks, and spots will do wonderfully!

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Yeah sure, and you simultaneously stand in front of every instrument in an orchestra so as to hear each individual instrument with two ears. No, you sit in the audience in one seat. The trumpet sounds like it's over there ( gesturing with my hand to spot on stage ) and the oboe is over there, etc...

I always hated those jazz recordings where the piano is fully panned L-R and so are the drums. Where am I sitting to hear this band? Am I on the piano bench? And why does it sound as if the high-hat is 12 feet away from the floor-tom? Are there two drummers, or is there a giant octopus in the rhythm section?

Never use two mics when one will do. Use two mics when only two will do.

XY/Blumlein is cool for in front of an orchestra , small chamber group, horn section etc... But for alto flutes recorded as an overdub to be inserted into a mix that sounds like an old Mancini thing? I think Blumlein, M/S, or any other stereo mic-ing might sound too big and over the top.

Consider that I may be correct or I may be full of shit.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Robobo1

Depends on the recording, right?



I definitely don't always agree with hard-panned pianos and drums... but as I type this I'm listening to Brad Mehldau's 'House on Hill' and both the piano and drums are hard panned. It's a recording that sounds like a recording... it's a little surreal, but that's ok. The music is geat! Check out Jim Anderson's stuff... none of his recordings (that I know) are realistic, they are over the top, but they still sound like great recordings! If I want to hear somethign that sounds like a live performance, I'll go buy a live disc.

In the end, the music is exciting either way...

I think we may are both assuming different approaches to his session. And therefore comparing apples to oranges! If given a session like you describe, I would NEVER take the above approach. A traditional stereo pair, flanks, and spots will do wonderfully!

I would not normaly use isolation on a jazz date, but in this case the piece in question has alto flute wich is a bitch to record unless isolated or on a huge scoring stage. Still, I would mic each flute with one mic and pan them later in the mix. Thats how it was done on those old Mancini dates in the first place.

As far as Jim Anderson's work, I'm not up on it off hand, although I don't like the over the top panning for jazz dates. I want audience POV. That's how I like to make jazz records. Usually people hire me to produce their records because the like the old Blue Note and Prestiege records and want a sound like that. Most engineers today are unwilling to do that, RVG in particular. I'm sick of hearing CDs on jazz radio that sound like they were recorded by pop/rock guys. Even Phil Ramone has lost it. That Sinatra "Duets" record sounds like pop drek. Fender bass and the bass drum, or "kick drum" as the rock&roll guys call it, sounds like a queen sized mattress with reverb.

Ok...I'm getting off topic, sorry.

[classicalrecord]

ok, if you really want to get fancy, here's an option as well... set up a stereo pair in the room-- ortf, xy, whatever you want... then set up spot mics in an array as if you were micing three people at once. have the person move from mic to mic for each part and then you have natural stereo sound/imaging from the main pair and a spot mic to fill in presence. it's actually even a nice idea to use different mics for each part because it helps give the illusion that three different people were playing the different parts even though it was the same person-- best of both worlds-- natural stereo imaging for the section (because the various parts are being referenced to there spatial location in the room via the main pair and presence/different color from the different spot mics.
anyway, i've down this to create a more realistic trombone section sound before and it worked well.
just another thought...

[Blatboy]

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back... I've been nuts. Thanks for all the help. I ended up using one mic on the Alto Flute... overdubbed for 3 parts. Came out great. I used an AT4050, which isn't the best in the world for the job, but it's what I got right now, and it got the job done. (I'll most likely end up getting one of those R84 guys when I get the scratch. That would have been perfect for a lot of this session.)

Yeah... crime jazz... Elmer Bernstein, Henry Mancini... a la the theme from Perry Mason or the score from The Sweet Smell Of Success...etc.

Thanks for all the input!

[AB3]

A lot depends on the sound you want. A great alto flute has rich lows. So an R84 may work great. I would put it over the flute facing down. Not in front of the flutist's mouth.

I got a great recording of one about 13 years ago from a master flutist with one gefell mic (something "70") - but it was to tape.

I really like the R84 on a regular flute, but I can see where it would be awesome on an alto. And it takes eq well, if you want to add some highs. Personally, I like to emphasize the lows on a flute. The highs do not seem to have a problem getting out there.