Starting out in location recording

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by recordinghopkins

But wait!





Thomas, would you please explain the difference between engineers offering services for free and composers doing the same? You recommend the freebie route in this other thread, but condemn it here when it seems to encroach on your own domain. I'm just a little confused. You seem to subscribe to two different schools of thought. Thanks!

At the local college you can get your recital recorded for free (if you know the right person), you can get your CDs and DVDs duplicated for free from the Media Services, you can get your band recorded for free or for a couple of six packs of beer (if you know the right person) and that same person can mix down and master your stuff in their dorm room. This work is mostly done by students for free. You can also get your recital video taped for free (if you know the right person) and they will also do the editing and finishing work on the DVD for you. There are composers who will do some compositional work for you if they are your friend or if you are collaborating with them on a recital piece and they are getting credit for the work. These are students doing favors for other students. I did a lot of this when I was in college. It is how you learn.

What I am talking about is someone offering to do recordings for free for a musical group when it is a paying job for me. I don't think you get the subtle difference. There are too many amateurs and hobbyist that think it is fun to dabble in doing recordings and who, in order to practice their hobby will offer to do recording for free. With budgets getting tighter and tighter lots of not for profit and non profit groups are looking to cut cost where ever they can and if someone is willing to do recording for free then the groups will sometimes take them up on their offers to save money.

When people offer to do recordings for free is a good way to bring down the rates that I and others charge because people will say "well I can get this recorded for free and you are charging me $XXX.XX so if you want to keep doing recording for us you need to lower your rates or we will go the free route"

People who are in charge of non profit musical groups sometimes are not thinking about the quality of the recording but about their bottom line and saving money.

I hope I have made myself clear.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by boojum

I think there will always be friction between the competent amateurs and some of the pro's. And the friction may be justified and may not be. It is a very emotional issue because it gets personal. The Romans had a saying about fairness: "Much of what is justice turns on whose ox is gored." When it does not hurt us it can be in the realm of the abstract. When it does hurt us it is personal and sometimes quite painful.

sermon/

Well said as usual...

[joelpatterson]

Which is all why, to put my Mr. Obvious suit on, there had better be a staggeringly dramatic difference between what someone can get for free from their buddies and what costs them coin of the realm.

[Don S]

I can't tell you how many times I get projects that where done for "free" and the client winds up paying more for me to fix it than it would have cost for me to record it correctly in the first place. As pro's we are sometimes helped by "free" competition, but as Thomas points out, in the larger picture sometimes "free" winds up not being of much help.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Which is all why, to put my Mr. Obvious suit on, there had better be a staggeringly dramatic difference between what someone can get for free from their buddies and what costs them coin of the realm.

I hear what you are saying but sometimes the clients we deal with are more concerned with using the correct Umlaut in a German's composer's name in the subtitle than how the concert sounds. They routinely check the quality of the concert DVD on their laptops on in their cars as they are driving around. Most times the comments we get are "can you make the whole concert louder since I am having problems hearing it in my car at 60 MPH on the highway" or "my son was only on camera for 38.5 seconds and other peoples children were on camera for 60 seconds or more". Go figure!

[joelpatterson]

In the trade, I guess these are what we'd call "Facepalm Moments."

[Operator_tape]

I think its more how "recording" has changed to a diy field by all the marketing of the gear in recent years. Everybody thinks is something they can pick it by buying a couple of hundred dollars worth of gear and diy ing it for there projects... I believe though people can see/hear a good product from a professional and justify the costs in the long run... just my two cents :-)

[joelpatterson]

Certainly-- anyone can invest a few hundred dollars in gear and "create" recordings-- but we're living through some strange epoch where this newly available ability has a 'blinding factor' that temporarily persuades some people that all recordings are created equal.

I'd advance the proposition that we, as engineers, were born with a heightened sensitivity to aspects of sound like sonority and resonancism (there's a word, eh?) that allows us to easily distinguish when something sounds like a cat being choked versus a mellifluous/gorgeous song playing.

In fact, that's the whole entire gist of what we do: the endlessly time-consuming effort to spin knobs and dials and faders and parameters to get the sound we're hearing from the playback devices under our command to conform to an ideal vision somewhere in the recesses of our heads.

Miraculously-- or not-- alot of people who try to do this are not in touch with their inner "arbiter of quality" and as a result, you get blitheringly catastrophic recordings, worthless and destined for the nearest dustbin that history has placed at regular intervals along the curb.

What can be done about this? Smile sweetly, don't be too cruel, realize that even Picasso was once a kid playing with crayons, and resist the impulse to laugh in anyone's face.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Certainly-- anyone can invest a few hundred dollars in gear and "create" recordings-- but we're living through some strange epoch where this newly available ability has a 'blinding factor' that temporarily persuades some people that all recordings are created equal.

I'd advance the proposition that we, as engineers, were born with a heightened sensitivity to aspects of sound like sonority and resonancism (there's a word, eh?) that allows us to easily distinguish when something sounds like a cat being choked versus a mellifluous/gorgeous song playing.

In fact, that's the whole entire gist of what we do: the endlessly time-consuming effort to spin knobs and dials and faders and parameters to get the sound we're hearing from the playback devices under our command to conform to an ideal vision somewhere in the recesses of our heads.

Miraculously-- or not-- alot of people who try to do this are not in touch with their inner "arbiter of quality" and as a result, you get blitheringly catastrophic recordings, worthless and destined for the nearest dustbin that history has placed at regular intervals along the curb.

What can be done about this? Smile sweetly, don't be too cruel, realize that even Picasso was once a kid playing with crayons, and resist the impulse to laugh in anyone's face.

Well said as usual. Nice summation.

[recordinghopkins]

Joel, you need to write a book. I'd buy it.

[joelpatterson]

Oh... I'd definitely make it "pirate-friendly"....

[recordinghopkins]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Oh... I'd definitely make it "pirate-friendly"....

Well then I'll torrent it (just to see if I like it first... ), then buy it.

Adamski, are you still here? I hope we didn't run you off. How's it going with the mic locker?

[polytope]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Oh... I'd definitely make it "pirate-friendly"....

Or just write it as a series of blog articles.

[adamski]

Originally Posted by recordinghopkins

Well then I'll torrent it (just to see if I like it first... ), then buy it.

Adamski, are you still here? I hope we didn't run you off. How's it going with the mic locker?

Still here, lurking in the background..

Ordered pair of Oktava Mk-012 which I will get modified. Also a used MK-219 which will also get mod'd. Pair of Little Blondies.

Thinking about a D12, MD 441 or RE-20 for bass and other duties. Also a nice dynamic for vox.. SM7b maybe.
Also looking at getting a DAV BG1 for extra preamp juice to add to the MH 2882. That will probably be my budget busted by then!

Have 2-3 opportunities to do "free" recordings, at my discretion. I know its been controversial here. I've made it clear that I will only do the job if I am into what they are doing, interesting sounds, good message, unusual challenge etc. I really just want to get some experience and dont feel comfortable, yet, advertising as a pro service. Its an interesting topic. I look at my old friend who is now doing foley and sound design for film. He started doing loads of jobs for free to build up his portfolio before he got into film school. He's only recently starting to earn decent money for his work. He loves it and it shows in the creativity of his work.

I realise music recording is a different game. However I do not intend to be the free/cheap guy undercutting those doing similar work in my area. I've now found two guys wanting to set up a similar service. Both are keen to get together and share resources.
Its all about collaboration over competition wherever possible, IMO.

I had an idea, to form a co-operative of audio recording specialists, share resources, spaces, skills, knowledge .. but my initial focus is on skills, getting to know the gear and finding people I can work with.

Exciting times

[Piranhadrum]

Originally Posted by Don S

I can't tell you how many times I get projects that where done for "free" and the client winds up paying more for me to fix it than it would have cost for me to record it correctly in the first place. As pro's we are sometimes helped by "free" competition, but as Thomas points out, in the larger picture sometimes "free" winds up not being of much help.

This is so true, I've had clients come knocking on my door scarred with the four lettered word known as 'free'. Recently a client just wanted me to do the live tracking and was going to send the tracks off to a buddy in Chicago who worked with the Bravery to mix. All for free of course. When they got it back it was all squashed, so they decided to mix it themselves. A couple weeks later, after shooting themselves in the ears trying to mix, they called to have me finish the project. They even said my quick mix and export after the show was better than anything else try tried.

I actually get excited when I see adds in CL for free recording or mixing, it's good for my business!

[Don S]

Originally Posted by adamski

Ordered pair of Oktava Mk-012 which I will get modified.

A good value and good sounding mic. I got a pair with all 3 caps for $400. They've been my workhorse "B" mics ever since (ambient, spots, ect)

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Piranhadrum

This is so true, I've had clients come knocking on my door scarred with the four lettered word known as 'free'. Recently a client just wanted me to do the live tracking and was going to send the tracks off to a buddy in Chicago who worked with the Bravery to mix. All for free of course. When they got it back it was all squashed, so they decided to mix it themselves. A couple weeks later, after shooting themselves in the ears trying to mix, they called to have me finish the project. They even said my quick mix and export after the show was better than anything else try tried.

I actually get excited when I see adds in CL for free recording or mixing, it's good for my business!

I am glad you are having good results. Unfortunately a lot of people who go the free route also think that the person who is going to save their butts should also work "for free"

A while back I got a client who was going to use our services for mastering. He balked at the hourly charge and found someone to do the mastering for $20.00 per hour. The "mastering engineer" who he chose must have had a really bad speaker setup or had nary a clue what he was doing because the stuff sounded really really bad when the original client brought it back to me when he was not happy with the results. We would have charged the client about $400 for the mastering. The guy he went to charged him over $800 and took 40 hours to do what should have been done in 5. The client wanted me to "fix the problems" but he did not want me to start over - just "fix the mastering". I told him I could not. So he says "well the first guy charged me $20.00 per hour so I guess you can do it for the same rate?" I had to tell him the facts of life and he was not very happy. I was able to do what he wanted and he went away pleased and sent more client to us.

Free does not equate with good. Free equates with free.

[polytope]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

I am glad yo are having good results. Unfortunately a lot of people who go the free route also think that the person who is going to save their butts should also work "for free"

A while back I got a client who was going to use our services for mastering. He balked at the hourly charge and found someone to do the mastering for $20.00 per hour. The "mastering engineer" who he chose must have had a really bad speaker setup or had nary a clue what he was doing because the stuff sounded really really bad when the original client brought it back to me when he was not happy with the results. We would have charged the client about $400 for the mastering. The guy he went to charged him over $800 and took 40 hours to do what should have been done in 5. The client wanted me to "fix the problems" but he did not want me to start over - just "fix the mastering". I told him I could not. So he says "well the first guy charged me $20.00 per hour so I guess you can do it for the same rate?" I had to tell him the facts of life and he was not very happy. I was able to do what he wanted and he went away pleased and sent more client to us.

Free does not equate with good. Free equates with free.

I have done a couple of recordings for free (as a learning experience since I'm just starting out) for some "clients". But I made it clear that if they wanted something of guaranteed quality, they should hire a pro.

In any case, those recordings were for archival purpose and not for sale so they wouldn't have been done by a pro anyway. The alternative was that the events would have never been recorded.

I think people who look for cheap should understand what they're getting into. If they're not going to be happy with the end result, they should have gone to someone whose reputation is on the line.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by polytope

I have done a couple of recordings for free (as a learning experience since I'm just starting out) for some "clients". But I made it clear that if they wanted something of guaranteed quality, they should hire a pro.

In any case, those recordings were for archival purpose and not for sale so they wouldn't have been done by a pro anyway. The alternative was that the events would have never been recorded.

I think people who look for cheap should understand what they're getting into. If they're not going to be happy with the end result, they should have gone to someone whose reputation is on the line.

This is a critical part of this discussion. (I added underline).

[Thomas W. Bethe]

^^^^^^^^^^

Or someone from the group would have recorded the event with a zoom type recorder for free. I see more and more concerts with a zoom type recorders sitting on the stage. I cannot imaging how bad the sound they are getting is but of course it only cost the user less than $200.00 which is probably less than they would have been charged for the recording if done by a professional.

[joelpatterson]

It can only take a very few minutes to "accustom" oneself to dreadful sound, and from that point on, you're swept up in the excitement of the performance. It's all about the marvelous flexibility of the human mind to make allowances for shortcomings and "pretend."

[polytope]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

It can only take a very few minutes to "accustom" oneself to dreadful sound, and from that point on, you're swept up in the excitement of the performance. It's all about the marvelous flexibility of the human mind to make allowances for shortcomings and "pretend."

I seem to remember reading that (at least in the pop/rock world) the producers are at fault of producing bad-sounding records, things that are compressed to have 0 dynamic range.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

It can only take a very few minutes to "accustom" oneself to dreadful sound, and from that point on, you're swept up in the excitement of the performance. It's all about the marvelous flexibility of the human mind to make allowances for shortcomings and "pretend."

Joel, this i too true. I have been involved as an "audiophike" since the mid-50's. I currently have a very good playback set. But I can catch a performance on my table radio, stereo, in the bedroom and be swept away by the performance itself. If I go to the living room and crank up the monster it is way better, though. But it can be enjoyed as lo-fi.

I can also enjoy a fast food burger but way prefer a good T-bone done over mesquite or red oak coals.

[philper]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

^^^^^^^^^^

Or someone from the group would have recorded the event with a zoom type recorder for free. I see more and more concerts with a zoom type recorders sitting on the stage. I cannot imaging how bad the sound they are getting is but of course it only cost the user less than $200.00 which is probably less than they would have been charged for the recording if done by a professional.

There is no such thing as an event like this that will go unrecorded anymore, even if it's on someone's phone. We simply can't play that card anymore, every decent musician has at least a "shaver", if not more stuff.

phil p

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by polytope

I seem to remember reading that (at least in the pop/rock world) the producers are at fault of producing bad-sounding records, things that are compressed to have 0 dynamic range.

I feel like that's an alternate issue, "primping" things way beyond anything reasonable, like how a teenage girl new to makeup will positively slather on the lipstick and mascara...

Originally Posted by boojum

Joel, this i too true. I have been involved as an "audiophike" since the mid-50's. I currently have a very good playback set. But I can catch a performance on my table radio, stereo, in the bedroom and be swept away by the performance itself. If I go to the living room and crank up the monster it is way better, though. But it can be enjoyed as lo-fi.

I can also enjoy a fast food burger but way prefer a good T-bone done over mesquite or red oak coals.

Exactly, it all comes down to hunger and options... seems like this is one of the eternal dilemmas?

[recordinghopkins]

whew, joel! you're about to hit 10k posts. Let me go off topic to say thank you for being such a great contributing member here.

carry on...