Starting out in location recording

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Don S

I could be wrong, but it's difficult to "compete" with zero for a cost. I think that was the point Thomas was trying to make.

Sure, but if someone is willing to do it for free you have to live with it. It's not that we can go around in a free world telling people that they should not hang out with cute girls for free just because you happen to have this busniess idea of charging for it. :-)

Yes, I was serious on that one but that was not what I was talking about earlier. I was basically talking about working for free one evening and than get that money back the next twenty. Also those times I have done that I got money for that first job anyway becasue the customer appreciated the work and effort and it brought me more job from the same customer.

/Peter

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Another example to make my point.

In the construction business and the market of carpenters, painters, plumbers and so on it's very common that you meet the customer to be, discuss the job and then you go home and calculate on your price... at the same time two or three other guys/companies do the same for the same job. Sometimes you get the job and sometimes not. Those times you did not get the job you basically worked for a few or many hours for free and that's the everyday reality for millions and millions of people. So what if you still earn good money and live a good life?

It's what you earn in total (long term) weighed against the time, effort and money you have to put in that counts if we are talking economy.


/Peter

The original post was about offering free services to start. The comparison you made is one while one is already making money and sometimes doesn't make as much or none that day.
To the original poster - I would not start at free, but a reduced cost. In all my years of business, only one client called saying that they would pay any amount I asked to record.

[Audiop]

Did anyone of the participants (including Don :-) in this thread download Reaper for free and tried it before you purchased the license?

Or any other software for a 30 day free trial?

/Peter

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Did anyone of the participants (including Don :-) in this thread download Reaper for free and tried it before you purchased the license?

Or any other software for a 30 day free trial?

/Peter

IMHO software trials are not the same as having someone go out and record a group at a remote location. There are real costs involved in doing remote recordings including equipment, gas and your time. A software trial is downloading something off the net which takes no skill or the expenditure of any "real" money. FWIW

[pieter k]

Originally Posted by Don S

Cautiously budding in:
There's a point here that Bethe is trying make. Guys that buy gear and donate services are not making it any easier for anyone who is further up the chain. Although less so at the top, it doesn't promote what we do as a profession as valuable when you're not charging or close to it. Americans only value what they pay for. But getting up to standard fees, if your talents are indeed there, as quickly as possible helps and evens competition in an already stressed business.

That's a pretty specious argument.

Moreover, if it represents Bethe's POV, then I'd argue that more than anything else it betrays fear of competition. Protectionism. How is that good?

I don't understand this line of thinking at all. How someone with a newly acquired starter rig and ZERO experience and probably not much more knowledge is somehow an immediate threat to the livelihood of an established pro with an extensive body of work, sterling reputation, and first rate gear (you guys have all that right?) is beyond me.

If I carried that kind of attitude around with me, I'd have a panic attack every time someone bought a new copy of Final Cut from Apple.

On the contrary, I give young people and/or newcomers eager to learn every opportunity to learn from me; I bring them around the studio, introduce them to people, give them technical and personal advice, etc. And I live and work in Los Angeles, with arguably the most competitive and deepest pool of highly experienced professionals in the TV/film/post/audio industry anywhere in the world. There is a veritable sea of people hungry to move up the food chain here, but a good professional won't go hungry either. I don't feel threatened, nor do most of my peers.

If you live in a small college town and have a monopoly on regional location recording, that's admirable. But to decry those nationwide wishing to get a foot in and compete in the industry at large is a fairly regressive attitude in my opinion.

At the end of the day, it's just my opinion.

To the OP--if we haven't lost you by now--you'll obviously make up your own mind based on the totality of arguments you've read and heard. Chance and situation will no doubt play a role in determining what happens for you. Good luck!

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

IMHO software trials are not the same as having someone go out and record a group at a remote location. There are real costs involved in doing remote recordings including equipment, gas and your time. A software trial is downloading something off the net which takes no skill or the expenditure of any "real" money. FWIW

I do not think that "it's the same" but what happens to a company that spend a year or two creating a new powerful software (with cost for employees, computers, rent for the space the company lives in and so on) if they offer their product for free on the net and no one buys it? Software does not happens by itself, it's brains and hard work and those brains also needs nutrients and somewhere to sleep at night.

Just becasue you download ones and zeros thru an internet connection does not make the effort that went in to create those ones and zeros nill. There are many companies and people in the law business focusing purely on what is called intellectual property. Think about it.

It seems you just refuse to think rational and from a business and economical point of view and just hang on to a gut feeling which does not have much to do with the reality of starting and running a business.


/Peter

[rumleymusic]

I do not think that "it's the same" but what happens to a company that spend a year or two creating a new powerful software (with cost for employees, computers, rent for the space the company lives in and so on) if they offer their product for free on the net and no one buys it? Software does not happens by itself, it's brains and hard work and those brains also needs nutrients and somewhere to sleep at night.

Maybe they should ask their programmers to work for free because it would give them nice credits for the future.

If someone wants to "trial" my services, I have plenty of samples they can listen to for free.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Maybe they should ask their programmers to work for free because it would give them nice credits for the future.

I would expect the Cockos people to earn good money since I and many other people appreciate their business modell and pay them even if we really don't have to. That's my point which you obviously miss.

If someone wants to "trial" my services, I have plenty of samples they can listen to for free.

And that's the nice thing with living in a free world, you chose yourself how to run your business and your life.


/Peter

[rumleymusic]

I would expect the Cockos people to earn good money since I and many other people appreciate their business modell and pay them even if we really don't have to. That's my point which you obviously miss.

I don't think you really have a point. You are just stretching for an analogy, missed the mark by a mile, and now are getting defensive.

[jnorman]

yes, i used a trial version of Reaper for a few months. i loved it, and bought it - it is only $60 - you cant go wrong with it, and there is a great users forum to provide any assistance you might want.

[recordinghopkins]

Originally Posted by Don S

I could be wrong, but it's difficult to "compete" with zero for a cost. I think that was the point Thomas was trying to make.

I think it's pretty easy to compete with free. My experience tells me it's not about the rate, but about the human aspect of doing business. If I were a dbag and miss out on the chance to develop relationships with my clients, then an offer for a free recording could easily steal clients from my roster. I've never lost a client over my rates. It's just not a huge factor in the whole process of making a record. If you're losing clients to freebie or lowball offers, it's probably a good idea to examine your business practices, not your rates.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

I don't think you really have a point. You are just stretching for an analogy, missed the mark by a mile, and now are getting defensive.

Off course I have a point and you don't have to insult me in order to make me help you understand it, promise.

My points are clear in the posts I've done. If you are interested in a constructive discussion please read them again, contemplate and get back.


/Peter

[Rolo 46]

As the industry offers little or no training any more, the accepted entry point is internship, a lot of this is for free or just for expenses.
This is the same as offering recording services for free
Are we against runners etc learning the business and taking jobs from the experienced?
Possibly, yes, and it is monopolistic.
Life is change, the grand training schemes of Broadcaster and Labels/Studios are redundant in the face of IT.
Everything is up for grabs.

[saciestudio]

I have to agree that working for free, "does not pay". I mean, I started working cheap or for free to get nice sounding recordings and use them as showreel. The thing is, at least in my case, most people that wanted to record at that price were not professionals, or the ones that were, they didn't care much about finishing the recordings, because it was so cheap that when he wanted he could come and finish (or give his approval for the mix to be released, etc.) Point being that I done stuff cheap for the credit and, the few that did come to a good final product took so long that when they came out I was already charging as a professional and had nice music out with creds... Now that I charge a "normal" price, the musicians usually come all set with notes on what to change, they try to finish and sometimes release as fast as possible, so, yes, I think one must charge accordingly to his experience, but don't think just because you never done it, it's gonna be worthless. Chances are if you charge a little higher you'll get better work that makes for a better showreel.

PS just read the last posts. I think working as an intern, even for free, does not compare to working for free or very cheap directly to the client. If the client is paying a big company to record and you're their intern, you don't get associated with charging low, and you may even not have to cope with cheapass messy clients that do everything wrong and expect you to solve all their problems for a few bucks (at that point they come to the conclusion that YOU were the bad link on the chain, even if they put the monitors at 11 and knock all recording mics on the floor, after all YOU are recording and mixing, it must be your fault the product s*cks).

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by pieter k

That's a pretty specious argument.

Moreover, if it represents Bethe's POV, then I'd argue that more than anything else it betrays fear of competition. Protectionism. How is that good?

I don't understand this line of thinking at all. How someone with a newly acquired starter rig and ZERO experience and probably not much more knowledge is somehow an immediate threat to the livelihood of an established pro with an extensive body of work, sterling reputation, and first rate gear (you guys have all that right?) is beyond me.

If I carried that kind of attitude around with me, I'd have a panic attack every time someone bought a new copy of Final Cut from Apple.

On the contrary, I give young people and/or newcomers eager to learn every opportunity to learn from me; I bring them around the studio, introduce them to people, give them technical and personal advice, etc. And I live and work in Los Angeles, with arguably the most competitive and deepest pool of highly experienced professionals in the TV/film/post/audio industry anywhere in the world. There is a veritable sea of people hungry to move up the food chain here, but a good professional won't go hungry either. I don't feel threatened, nor do most of my peers.

If you live in a small college town and have a monopoly on regional location recording, that's admirable. But to decry those nationwide wishing to get a foot in and compete in the industry at large is a fairly regressive attitude in my opinion.

At the end of the day, it's just my opinion.

To the OP--if we haven't lost you by now--you'll obviously make up your own mind based on the totality of arguments you've read and heard. Chance and situation will no doubt play a role in determining what happens for you. Good luck!

Some real world examples:

We use to record a local singing group made up of people in town. We charged the group a very reasonable rate for doing the recordings. One day I get a letter from the group's leader saying that "we no longer need your services as one of our members is willing to do the recordings for free as audio is his hobby and he wants to do the recordings from now on" This was never a money maker for us so it was no big deal.

Recently a client that we have had for 43 years decided that they were having "financial problems" and dropped us. Come to find out that one of the Grandfathers of one of the participants has agreed to do the recordings for free as he use to be a TV director back in the "good olde days" and wants to help out. So now we are out a good deal of money and the person who is doing the recordings is having "fun" doing this as his hobby in his retirement.

I will say it again. Trying to compete with free in today's USA economy is a no win situation.

In the case of the Grandfather he is using very cheap equipment and will not turn out anything like what we provided for the group but he is free.

I could go on but I think you and I live in very different cultures and have very different ways looking at how to make a living.

I wish you lots of success and hope that all your businesses continue to make you a lot of money.

[adamski]

Some interesting replies and discussions going on here...

I am partly going into this as I want to learn how to make quality recordings for my own music projects.

I also want a way to get out there and connect with great musicians.

On top of this, I like providing a good service to people. I don't know of many others in my area doing this kind of thing, I'm sure there are but I haven't seen them or their ads yet. I have many years experience mixing and producing so can also bring that service to the table.

Some great advice here guys, thank you. Will keep you guys updated as things progress!

In the meantime... just setting up my MH 2882, and in the process of buying some new mics...

[recordinghopkins]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

I will say it again. Trying to compete with free in today's USA economy is a no win situation.

Why the obsession with rates?

I will say it again, too. Competing with free is easy.

Tier up and go the extra mile for your clients. Educate them as you go. Help them to understand the great deal of knowledge and experience required for superior results. Be flexible. Be on time. Reply to emails quickly. Return phone calls promptly. Give them extras here and there. Compliment their work. Be honest. Don't give them a hard time about cancellations. If short term finances cause problems for your loyal client, bill them over the next 6 months. Devote yourself to the job and your clients. All of this builds value in your brand. Put your time and effort into cultivating these relationships with your clients and the free guy (or your lack of experience) will not stand in the way of paying gigs.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by recordinghopkins

Why the obsession with rates?

I will say it again, too. Competing with free is easy.

Tier up and go the extra mile for your clients. Educate them as you go. Help them to understand the great deal of knowledge and experience required for superior results. Be flexible. Be on time. Reply to emails quickly. Return phone calls promptly. Give them extras here and there. Compliment their work. Be honest. Don't give them a hard time about cancellations. If short term finances cause problems for your loyal client, bill them over the next 6 months. Devote yourself to the job and your clients. All of this builds value in your brand. Put your time and effort into cultivating these relationships with your clients and the free guy (or your lack of experience) will not stand in the way of paying gigs.

I have been doing remote recording for 43 years. You are telling me to do things I have been doing well for all of that time. It is not as easy as you make it out to be. FREE always wins because basically we here in the USA live in a WalMart world where the cheaper (not necessarily the better) always wins.

Some people live in a different society where people value good service and excellent results - here in the states people seem to want to get things done as cheaply as possible PERIOD and if they can get something done for FREE they will go for it.

[RobAnderson]

I think different markets might require different approaches. They will also sustain differing amounts and levels of competition. On every level we have to compete with "free" - lots of the big live shows have recording capability practically built-in, almost every venue is offering some sort of recording off the live board (including multi-track), kids right out of (or still in) school are doing all the little recital gigs for free. It's reality and there is nothing we will be able to do about it typing in an internet forum.

To survive as a professional, you will need to differentiate yourself: in quality, knowledge, service, good jokes; whatever it takes.

We all do whatever we need to do to break into new markets and try new ways of sustaining and/or expanding our businesses. I have my rates, but I also recognize the need to be flexible at times. There are some gigs you could not pay me enough to do - they wouldn't be worth it at any price; there are others that I would gladly do way below my own usual rates. Andrew Carnegie believed that even if he would only make a single dollar in profit, the job would be worth doing.

One of my mentors once told me not to poo-poo the little job, and not to focus always on the money, but rather on the product - always improve the product and approach the low-paying gigs with the same attitude, attention, and integrity as the high-paying ones. Eventually the money will find YOU.

Another thing he taught me: Make no unnecessary enemies; always conduct yourself in a way that pays respect to your colleagues and competitors. Karma has a way of leveling the accounts.

In this line of work, your reputation is gold. There have been times where I walked away from great opportunities because I knew taking it would cause damage to my reputation or relationships; and Lord knows I've made lots of mistakes on gigs, but hopefully those who have worked with me in any capacity will always be able to speak highly of my character, if not my ability.

Sure: you might need to do a few gigs for free and/or cheap to get the word out and get some experience; and by all means, deliver more than your clients are paying for at all times. But don't poach other people's gigs and don't cut your own throat with unsustainable rates either: keep the market healthy so that it can sustain you in the future.

[recordinghopkins]

Sorry, Thomas, I wasn't aiming that at you. that's why I made a new paragraph. After 43 years, I have no doubt that you know how to serve your clients. Compared to my 4.3 years of remote work, you certainly have a great deal more experience than I do. Please don't stop replying, this is valuable dialog.

As a new generation entering the field, I had to make a decision about how to build a profitable business. For me, that means not taking just any gig I can find, but rather by letting the gigs come to me first and foremost through the development of relationships.

I currently live near Nashville. There's always someone that will do the job for less (or more, for that matter) around here. However, among the people I choose to do business with, the lowest price is not the ultimate driving factor. The people I work with are my clients because they want me on their team and feel my "brand" is worth my rate, not because they shopped around for the best price. I'm not in the business of getting gigs by any means possible. Walk-in business is not something I accept very often. When I do, it's usually by referral only. Perhaps it's my selectivity and the process I follow for building my client base that allows me to make such grand claims of success. Sure, I may lose out on some new clients for whom price is a factor, but more than once they've come back to me after learning the hard way that the rate isn't everything, even if it's free. Price divided by service = value. A good value is better than a low price; it's even better than free. This is the way I approach the conversation of fees with prospective clients, and the way I retain clients when there is always a lower rate to be found.

The cheapest does win, when the customer you seek is of the Walmart or Super 8 motel variety. Some people think it's a better value to buy organic at a small family grocery store or stay at a Hilton with room service and Egyptian cotton sheets. Are you following this analogy? People do still see beyond rates. It's these people that I actively seek out and develop a relationship with, then I strive to provide the Hilton experience.

I know I'm blowing my own horn a bit here, but I truly am humbled when a client chooses to forego a recording of tonight's gig so they can afford my rate next week.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by recordinghopkins

Sorry, Thomas, I wasn't aiming that at you. that's why I made a new paragraph. After 43 years, I have no doubt that you know how to serve your clients. Compared to my 4.3 years of remote work, you certainly have a great deal more experience than I do. Please don't stop replying, this is valuable dialog.

As a new generation entering the field, I had to make a decision about how to build a profitable business. For me, that means not taking just any gig I can find, but rather by letting the gigs come to me first and foremost through the development of relationships.

I currently live near Nashville. There's always someone that will do the job for less (or more, for that matter) around here. However, among the people I choose to do business with, the lowest price is not the ultimate driving factor. The people I work with are my clients because they want me on their team and feel my "brand" is worth my rate, not because they shopped around for the best price. I'm not in the business of getting gigs by any means possible. Walk-in business is not something I accept very often. When I do, it's usually by referral only. Perhaps it's my selectivity and the process I follow for building my client base that allows me to make such grand claims of success. Sure, I may lose out on some new clients for whom price is a factor, but more than once they've come back to me after learning the hard way that the rate isn't everything, even if it's free. Price divided by service = value. A good value is better than a low price; it's even better than free. This is the way I approach the conversation of fees with prospective clients, and the way I retain clients when there is always a lower rate to be found.

The cheapest does win, when the customer you seek is of the Walmart or Super 8 motel variety. Some people think it's a better value to buy organic at a small family grocery store or stay at a Hilton with room service and Egyptian cotton sheets. Are you following this analogy? People do still see beyond rates. It's these people that I actively seek out and develop a relationship with, then I strive to provide the Hilton experience.

I know I'm blowing my own horn a bit here, but I truly am humbled when a client chooses to forego a recording of tonight's gig so they can afford my rate next week.

I love to do remote recordings. It is always a challenge and it always feels good afterwards to have done an outstanding job for the client and have them appreciate what we have done for them.

In Northern Ohio we are experiencing very tough economic times. Many large manufacturing plants have closed down over the past five years and lots of people are out of work or are working at low end minimum wage jobs. Two of the non profits we work for have seen a 25% drop in tuition paying student participants and their concerts, which they charge for, are not as well attended as they were say five years ago so their overall budgets have been strained to say the least.

Lots of local smaller classical and non profit groups now self record with ZOOM type recorders. Even the high school and church markets have turned to doing things in house to save money and their "AV" crew does the recordings for free. What they get is not very professional looking or sounding but they don't have to pay someone to come in and do the recording. The local community college does all their own audio and video recordings and broadcasts them on the local cable channel. They to are not very well done but again they are done internally so there is no money going outside the institution.

Couple this with living and working in a college town where the college does most, if not all of the recordings of classical concerts in town and have even started doing recordings in local churches for free when a conservatory student is playing an organ recital there and it is not a pretty picture when it comes to picking up new clients or doing paying gigs locally.

Lorain county and Cuyahoga county, where we do most of our work, are usually listed as two of the poorest counties in the nation.

Lots of the groups we use to record are no longer putting on concerts due to the high cost of presenting them and the low revenue generated by smaller audiences.

I am at an age where moving to a more profitable area in terms of potential clients is not an option I want to pursue. I will continue to do my best for my current clients and hope that the economics improve.

I am not trying to make excuses but simply telling you what is going on in my world.

FWIW and YMMV

[joelpatterson]

One little truism I'm seeking to patent: people have to need a recording of what they do, either to broadcast on the radio or sell to fans or use to get a grant or pad their archive or prove their genius or something... those folks who merely would like to have a recording, think it would be cool or are enraptured with the idea ... they are not exactly " " people, but they're certainly " " and " "

[recordinghopkins]

Joel, that's brilliant insight.

[joelpatterson]

Thanks, I only wish I had a few more!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by pieter k

Since we're all obviously writing from within the framework of our own personal experience, my answer to your speculation above is very simple:

I already have a good job, at the highest scale of my job classification in my industry; a job that allows me to buy equipment with cash; no loans. This gear is expensive, but it's not THAT expensive; not like medical equipment.

Moreover, I earned my earning potential by way of the methods I've already discussed.

THAT is the point.

Also, agreeing to disagree? Perhaps it's better to say that we are as much products of chance and situation as we are willful choices and clearly defined goals. Your method got you where you are, mine got me where I am. That your method might be (as the terribly unscientific statistics of opinion already expressed in this thread suggest) an exception to a very broad, fuzzy, general rule makes it nothing more than what it is: an exception.

Do you really think counseling someone wishing to start some--any--endeavor from the ground floor to buy gear and start charging fees commensurate with established peers is the best advice?

Really?

I try and make my living from my audio and video services that I provide. I have been in business for 18 years with no other source of income. I do not "have a good job, at the highest scale of my job classification in my industry; a job that allows me to buy equipment with cash; no loans."

I have to purchase everything I use with my own money so maybe that is why I feel different about doing things for free.

The plain and simple fact is that if you already have another job that is paying you well then you are doing recordings as a avocation and not a vocation so your ways of working are much different. If you lose a client no big deal, if you lose your major source of income, your job, a veryBIG deal.

Take care and have fun with your "hobby".

[pieter k]

Thomas I thought we'd given this a rest.

You misunderstood me--again. As I said way earlier on, I was talking about my current position in my profession as a result of my attitude towards taking on work IN MY VOCATION (editor), just as you are talking about your position in YOUR vocation. I'm NOT talking about having the luxury of buying gear to pursue my avocational interests. I was making an analogous argument. You seem to have missed that.

Also, referring to whatever location work I might do as a hobby in scare quotes is a bit patronizing. I've said nothing at all about the other personal musical work I've done in the past, and the rewards its brought me, and this prospective recording project is, mainly, an extension of my renewed commitment to my own music and other projects that are completely personal, for which, thankfully, I have an audience, and for which, sometimes, I make some additional money. It's not a hobby. It's part of what I do in this world.

My hobby is building my own furniture and rock climbing. Big difference.

I'm sorry you're apparently embittered by the state of your work lately, and by the cultural climate of Oberlin, and by the fact that you're no longer willing to relocate to greener pastures. But projecting that frustration on to other people who've made different choices is a bit churlish, at least in the way you've taken to addressing me.

Are we done now? As you said, "agree[ing] to disagree?"

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by pieter k

Thomas I thought we'd given this a rest.

You misunderstood me--again. As I said way earlier on, I was talking about my current position in my profession as a result of my attitude towards taking on work IN MY VOCATION (editor), just as you are talking about your position in YOUR vocation. I'm NOT talking about having the luxury of buying gear to pursue my avocational interests. I was making an analogous argument. You seem to have missed that.

Also, referring to whatever location work I might do as a hobby in scare quotes is a bit patronizing. I've said nothing at all about the other personal musical work I've done in the past, and the rewards its brought me, and this prospective recording project is, mainly, an extension of my renewed commitment to my own music and other projects that are completely personal, for which, thankfully, I have an audience, and for which, sometimes, I make some additional money. It's not a hobby. It's part of what I do in this world.

My hobby is building my own furniture and rock climbing. Big difference.

I'm sorry you're apparently embittered by the state of your work lately, and by the cultural climate of Oberlin, and by the fact that you're no longer willing to relocate to greener pastures. But projecting that frustration on to other people who've made different choices is a bit churlish, at least in the way you've taken to addressing me.

Are we done now? As you said, "agree[ing] to disagree?"

One last time DOING THINGS FOR FREE OPENS THE DOOR TO DOING MORE THINGS FOR FREE AND NOT TO PAYING WORK . I don't think you understand the complexities of doing work in a very competitive field and having your livelihood taken away by someone who is doing things for free. You said you are well paid in your day job. How would you feel if your boss fired you because he said he had found someone to do your job for free???? I don't think you would be as caviler. The same idea applies to someone who does recordings for a livelihood and gets jobs taken away by someone who may not know a 10th of what I know but is willing to work for free.

I am not upset about this as there are always other things to do but it is something that is effecting everyone who works in audio today. Too many hobbyist doing things for free, too many people who have a large amount of expendable income where they can purchase good equipment and then use that equipment for recordings, mixing and mastering for little or no money. If they really had to pay for that equipment out of what they were making then it would be a different story. These hobbyist and would be audio engineers are taking a lot of the money from local performers who have decided that free or inexpensive is better for their bottom line than hiring a true professional to do the work at a reasonable rate. I don't blame the performers - they want to get stuff done and if someone is offering free or reduced rates it is a real benefit in their eyes. What they fail to realize is that they may not be getting a better project only a cheaper one.

My last comment on the matter.

[recordinghopkins]

In business, and indeed life, something's gonna knock you down, but you can't stay down. You certainly can't spend your time feeling sorry for yourself and reminiscing about how things used to be. You've got to keep moving forward. You've got to re-invent yourself. If you cannot or are not willing to do this, then the only other option is to resign yourself to doing nothing, and give up.


This is how we Americans have overcome one hardship after another, and it's how we Remotesters must plow on to make a living sufficient to allow doing something that we truly love.

We have ALL done work for free at some point in our careers. Companies doing free work or giving free product is not a new phenomenon. Blaming the other guy (perhaps rightly) for loss of business isn't either.

How do you compete with free? You charge a fair rate and you bust your tail to increase your earnings and lower your overhead and you remember not to take it for granted that you aren't slinging trash barrels or flipping burgers.

[recordinghopkins]

But wait!

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

If you can find an up an coming composer you may get your 30 second spot for nothing or very little. I would contact a local college or conservatory of music and see if one of their students wants to do this for credit. If you go to a commercial jingle provider you maybe in for some sticker shock. I have seen commercial music go for as little as $100 for a 30 second spot to over $400 for the same spot. If you go to a big name composer the sky is the limit.

Best of luck!

Thomas, would you please explain the difference between engineers offering services for free and composers doing the same? You recommend the freebie route in this other thread, but condemn it here when it seems to encroach on your own domain. I'm just a little confused. You seem to subscribe to two different schools of thought. Thanks!

[boojum]

I think there will always be friction between the competent amateurs and some of the pro's. And the friction may be justified and may not be. It is a very emotional issue because it gets personal. The Romans had a saying about fairness: "Much of what is justice turns on whose ox is gored." When it does not hurt us it can be in the realm of the abstract. When it does hurt us it is personal and sometimes quite painful.

sermon/