need new omni pair for piano - advise?

[hughesmr]

I'd suggest giving the 8020s a try ... a really different vibe than DPA/Schoeps but "organically true" at the same time. They get dark with more distant miking, but I think they'd fill the bill you are looking to fill.

[rumleymusic]

Can't go wrong with the 131's. If you can find a pair for 2000 I'd say buy now, figure out how to pay for it later. Either that or tell me where you found it so I can buy it.

I have the Sennheiser MKH8040 and personally would not chose to go with an 8020 because they are rather boomy.

Of course if want something more forgiving than DPA and more versatile than Schoeps, there is always the C617. Though you are not exactly saving any pennies there either.

[mljung]

I haven't tried them myself, but have you considered demoing the relatively new sE RN 17 with omni capsules? As far as I can see they have been well received.

But then again, they are not even cheaper than the km131 you are considering... and those should be a safe bet [I understand why you are reluctant about the 183, they have quite a huge top lift].

Apart from this I have good experience with my Milab DC-196, they are natural sounding multi-pattern microphones, without the peaky top. Rectangular diaphragms somewhere between LDC and SDC, but the microphones are small, no "stage-problems" with those.

::
Mads

[Rolo 46]

I bought a used pair of MKH 106 P48
For runner of the MKH 20s, for £500
Excellent mics
Although Mr Willet will claim they intermod more than the 20s
Their forward presence is impressive and their bottom solid
Sort of Scarlet Johansson ish

[rmaier]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

Their forward presence is impressive and their bottom solid
Sort of Scarlet Johansson ish

Hahaha! Thanks, it's been a while since a laughed that hard here!

[rumleymusic]

Oh wait, you said for piano, sorry, yeah the MKH8020 is actually fantastic for that, even with the heavy bottom.

[Sam Watson]

Check out Earthworks mics. Flat omni is something they do well.

I like some of the Neumann sound as well. If you go down the road of a LDC consider the TLM 170. It has the low end warmth and it multipattern. They show up on Ebay for a great price every so often. I wouldn't call it flat though. A bit of peak at 6kHz.

You are looking above the Oktava price range obviously. FWIW I suspect you would find the MC012 a little bright with the omni capsule anway. Beefy in cardiod but no so in omni.

Good luck.

[king2070lplaya]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

I bought a used pair of MKH 106 P48
For runner of the MKH 20s, for £500
Excellent mics
Although Mr Willet will claim they intermod more than the 20s
Their forward presence is impressive and their bottom solid
Sort of Scarlet Johansson ish

Thank you for that. I will look into a pair purely on that.

[John Willett]

The KM183 actually work very well on piano - I did four CDs with the KM183-D.

At your 2m distance, mount them vertical. The 90-degree response from the piano is ruler flat and the brightness is only reflections from the ceiling.

I did this before the KM131-D came out - and I do now have these as well.

Having said this, I also use MKH 20 and 8020 - the 8020 is excellent as a stereo pair on the dedicated stand / extension tubes for recording a live recital where the mics have to be discreet.

I am also looking at the Gefell M221 as well.

I hope this helps.

[d_fu]

You won't regret saving (or borrowing...) for the 131... I was lucky to get a used pair for like €800,- and I use them a lot... Send me a mail address and I'll send you some piano recording files with just a pair of 131s plus a touch of a pair of the Beyer MCD 100 digital mics. The recording is not yet released...

I personally also like the MC 801, predecessors of the MC 910, and some nice clips using the 910 have been posted here, so they might be well worth a listen IMHO.

D.

[didier.brest]

You might consider also the new KM 133.
Tested against DPA 4041 here and against the FLEA 50 (a clone of the Neumann M 50) here.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

You might consider also the new KM 133.
Tested against DPA 4041 here and against the FLEA 50 (a clone of the Neumann M 50) here.

The KM133-A/D uses the same titanium capsule as is in the M 150 / TLM 50.

If you are looking at this, the Gefell M221 with the nickel capsule is in the same ball-park and comes with a choice of two different sized balls.

[didier.brest]

There is a test of the Gefell M221 against the Josephson C617 using the same capsule on harpsicord here on a French audio forum. (In this test I preferred the DPA 4006.)
Another test of the C617 against the DPA 4006 and others on piano here.

[BrianHanke]

Shure KSM141. They sound spectacularly realistic and are an amazing deal.

[fifthcircle]

I've got mixed feelings about the 8020s. I find them very particular to certain pres or they just get too dark and too murky. When it comes to Sennheisers on piano, I generally prefer MKH800s (I just don't own them).

I generally tend to grab my DPA 4006 or Schoeps MK2 when I need omnis. However, just this summer at a festival, I had the opportunity to use a truly stunning set of omnis- the Sanken CO-100K. I had four of them that I used for solo and duo piano work. They had that perfect purity of sound that Sankens only seem to have. They are rather sensitive to placement, however. The extended top end makes it so that small changes in placement will have pretty marked changes in sound- they definitely take some getting used to because of that.

Keep an ear out for the Ojai Music festival's recordings from this summer on Performance Today. Those mics were used for the recordings. (with DPA 4006 and Schoeps MK21 on a modified decca tree and 4006's as flanks- piano mics went through a Vac Rac preamp). Specifically, there were performances of the Rite of Spring on 2 pianos as well as the Ives Concord Sonata. I have no idea when broadcast will be, however...

--Ben

[rmaier]

Originally Posted by BrianHanke

Shure KSM141. They sound spectacularly realistic and are an amazing deal.

I've also gotten some very nice results with the Shures as spaced omnis on piano, and I use them all of the time on classical guitar. They are a great deal.

[Plush]

Another up for the Shure KSM 141 switchable omni / cardioid. An outstanding microphone. Made with a very very thin diaphragm to offer superior transient response. (made in USA--Wheeling, IL)

Alternatively just buy the best piano mics out there--the Schoeps CMC62 or the Schoeps CMC52. (52 is simpler circuitry for purist approach sound). Nothing performs like a #2 omni Schoeps capsule.

[Omicron_9]

This:

Originally Posted by BrianHanke

Shure KSM141. They sound spectacularly realistic and are an amazing deal.

[Earcatcher]

Originally Posted by Plush

Alternatively just buy the best piano mics out there--the Schoeps CMC62 or the Schoeps CMC52. (52 is simpler circuitry for purist approach sound). Nothing performs like a #2 omni Schoeps capsule.

I have Schoeps MK2. You may be right, but also nothing performs like Sonodore RCM-402. That's my best piano mic. Off-axis response is near-immaculate, which makes them perfect for the large sound surface and important room tone of a piano.

[MDSKNNRP]

Originally Posted by jnorman

hola - i am looking for another pair of omnis for use on piano in both the studio and as spots for live performances. i am currently using a pair of DPA 4090s, which have given me some wonderful recordings.

i am looking for something with a generally flat response curve, with a bit of low-mid warmth, useable at 2-4 feet as spots, or 6 feet or so as AB mains for small ensemble work.

i am considering km183s, becuase i really like the neumann sound, but i worry about them being a tad too bright. i found an excellent price of under $2000 for a new pair of km131s (now all i have to do is find $2000...)

schoeps cmc62's would also be nice, though even more spendy, and i didnt really love my pair of cmc64s for whatever reason. dpa 4006s are always good, but i am looking for a differnt kind of sound from my current dpa's to add some variety to my ability to deal with different sounding instruments. several folks on here like the senn 8020s, but i have not used them.

i have also thought of going to LD mics, such as akg 414 uls, which i love as a spot on several instruments, though i have only used it in cardioid. i see lots of folks using 414s as mains, mostly in MS or wide spaced AB. also in this category might be the tlm149 or other similar multi-pattern LD or medium diaprhagm mic. they are perhaps a bit large for on-stage micing of live works...

on the cheaper side, i see that line audio is coming out with an SD omni soon. i also enjoyed the pair of AT4022's i had for a short while. i didnt like the beyer mc930, so i ahvent considered the mc910.

what do you guys recommend these days?
thanks.

Get two Neumann U89s. They go used on Ebay for as little as 1200 dollars each.

Extremely realistic sounding mic with plenty of options (5 polar patterns!).

They are a neutral to bright sounding mic (some people would properly call them ''dark'' since all mics sounds bright these days).

In particular, I think the low mid response is wonderfull.

Not sure I would call the U89 warm though but it is definitely not overly bright sounding.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by Earcatcher

I have Schoeps MK2. You may be right, but also nothing performs like Sonodore RCM-402. That's my best piano mic. Off-axis response is near-immaculate, which makes them perfect for the large sound surface and important room tone of a piano.

Sonodore is fantastic. I do use the designer's 60 volt systems. Wonderful stuff. But these involve special power supplies and I tried to keep it simple.

[Earcatcher]

Originally Posted by Plush

Sonodore is fantastic. I do use the designer's 60 volt systems. Wonderful stuff. But these involve special power supplies and I tried to keep it simple.

I've got the phantom powered version. Sounds as good, just has a little lower maximum SPL (136dB against 143dB for the 60V version). No problem for piano.

[AB3]

I would think that the 8020s would be great on a very bright piano. I never tried the MKH800s, but a friend tested those against DPA 4006s, the Josephson 617 sets (with the gefell capsules), and the gefell 296s, and the Sennheiser MKH800s he said were amazing. He sent me samples several years ago.
I just got some dpa 4015a mics that I am VERY happy with. I know they are not omni - but they sound a lot richer than the 4011s to me and may be just the thing for grand piano recordings, which I hope to try asap.

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I've got mixed feelings about the 8020s. I find them very particular to certain pres or they just get too dark and too murky. When it comes to Sennheisers on piano, I generally prefer MKH800s (I just don't own them).

I generally tend to grab my DPA 4006 or Schoeps MK2 when I need omnis. However, just this summer at a festival, I had the opportunity to use a truly stunning set of omnis- the Sanken CO-100K. I had four of them that I used for solo and duo piano work. They had that perfect purity of sound that Sankens only seem to have. They are rather sensitive to placement, however. The extended top end makes it so that small changes in placement will have pretty marked changes in sound- they definitely take some getting used to because of that.

Keep an ear out for the Ojai Music festival's recordings from this summer on Performance Today. Those mics were used for the recordings. (with DPA 4006 and Schoeps MK21 on a modified decca tree and 4006's as flanks- piano mics went through a Vac Rac preamp). Specifically, there were performances of the Rite of Spring on 2 pianos as well as the Ives Concord Sonata. I have no idea when broadcast will be, however...

--Ben