Jazz Piano mic: M149 or Brauner VM1 or?

[Kai]

I think you should compare them by yourself! I don't think that Brauner is more on the "classical side"...

Best Regards

[Dzoing]

Ok, I'll try to ask another way: I have no possibility at my place [for the moment] to rent any VM1, M149, nor original M49 (!)... First of all, I'd like to know how does the VM1 sound (on piano) compared to an M149, or even an M49. Is VM1 brighter than M149? More detailled? Does it have some mojo, as the M49 does?

[Steve G]

I've actually used all three of your choices, but never on an upright piano, only grand pianos. I didn't like the DPA's at all. Nothing in particular, just not the sound I was looking for. The Brauner is a terrific mic and sounds great on piano. The 149's are what I use every day, mostly because I have them available, but I really miss them when I don't. If you have a good pair of mic pre's, no eq is necessary, and I love not having to eq a piano. It's such a complex sound, that eq can really do damage quickly. As far as getting a more "classical" or a more "rock" sound, that has more to do with the instrument itself, and with the placement of the mics than the type of mic used. All that being said, if I were making the choice to purchase a pair of mic's, I would choose the Brauner, they are a bit more versatile outside of the piano. Great for vocals, acoustic gtr's, woodwinds, percussion, pretty much everything.

How's that for not answering your question at all?

Steve

[ajfarber]

The M49 was the typical mic used on piano at Columbia 30th street. Think Miles Davis' Kind of Blue, Dave Brubeck's Time Out. That was a Steinway D in a big room.

For an upright in a small room with a live rhythm section and no isolation, I recommend close micing the piano. If you have cardioid capusles for the DPAs, that would be a good choice. Or you can use the M149 on wide cardioid and build a "tent" around the mic to keep out too much unwanted drums.

Good Luck

[Knastratt]

Perhaps an Ehrlund Triangular? (Sorry - text in Swedish)

Is supposed to have the benefits of both LDC and SDC. His older models of condensers are highly appreciated for piano miking in Sweden.

Cheers - Pär

[Dzoing]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

The M49 was the typical mic used on piano at Columbia 30th street. Think Miles Davis' Kind of Blue, Dave Brubeck's Time Out. That was a Steinway D in a big room.

For an upright in a small room with a live rhythm section and no isolation, I recommend close micing the piano. If you have cardioid capusles for the DPAs, that would be a good choice. Or you can use the M149 on wide cardioid and build a "tent" around the mic to keep out too much unwanted drums.

Good Luck

Oh! There was some piano on Kind Of Blue?

Sure mine is not a Steinway D. Still a great upright [it's a Steingraeber 130, better than a Steinway upright, more like a Bösendorfer or a Beschtein upright, I mean at least as good as a great baby grand...]. But it's still upright, which means it doesn't work acousticaly the same as a grand.

Thanks for the advices. I tried middle to close micing with a matched pair km84 (cardio), also tried 414xls. km84 work the best, but I'd like to get something more "beefy" if it makes sense. As for the "tent", I thought about something like the SE Reflection Filter for that matter but I'm afraid it's just another home studio toy. Any thoughts?

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Dzoing

Oh! There was some piano on Kind Of Blue?

Sure mine is not a Steinway D. Still a great upright [it's a Steingraeber 130, better than a Steinway upright, more like a Bösendorfer or a Beschtein upright, I mean at least as good as a great baby grand...]. But it's still upright, which means it doesn't work acousticaly the same as a grand.

Thanks for the advices. I tried middle to close micing with a matched pair km84 (cardio), also tried 414xls. km84 work the best, but I'd like to get something more "beefy" if it makes sense. As for the "tent", I thought about something like the SE Reflection Filter for that matter but I'm afraid it's just another home studio toy. Any thoughts?

Go with the KM 84 clse to the hammers. You'll have to remove the front of the piano so hopefully the pianist won't have to read any charts. Ribbons also work well over the hammers. I have done this on grand pianos only but I assume it will work on an upright. It might be more "beefy" because of proximity effect.

The new Wynton Marsalis CD "Majic Hour" was recorded at Right Track A509 with 3 AKG414 over the hammers. Again Steinway D.

I am not familliar with Bechstein or Bosendorfer uprights, but in my experience the Bechstein grands are dark and rich and just as good as a Steinway of Grotrian. The Bosendorfers, on the other hand, are brassy and percussive without alot of richness. To me they are a rich man's Yamaha.

Anyway, go with the KM84 unless you happen upon some Royer 121 of SF1 or Coles 4038 etc...

[Brad Lunde]

The qualifier is you said "small room". The VM1, The M149, (also the others you might use Soundelux ELUX 251, Soundelux E49, SoundField 422B, vintage AKG C12, vintage 251, Neumann M150, etc etc) all pick up quite a bit of room sound. What makes many of those mics works so well for Classical is the necessary distance micing of larger classical ensembles; these mics all hold up well at distance and many mics just don't.

So, does the room sound really good?

Brad

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Brad Lunde

The qualifier is you said "small room". The VM1, The M149, (also the others you might use Soundelux ELUX 251, Soundelux E49, SoundField 422B, vintage AKG C12, vintage 251, Neumann M150, etc etc) all pick up quite a bit of room sound. What makes many of those mics works so well for Classical is the necessary distance micing of larger classical ensembles; these mics all hold up well at distance and many mics just don't.

So, does the room sound really good?

Brad

Not to change the subject but; Is the Soudelux E49 more like a vintage M49 or the new M149?

Just asking.

[Brad Lunde]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Not to change the subject but; Is the Soudelux E49 more like a vintage M49 or the new M149?

Just asking.

M49. The goal was a flat mic without the typical rise in the high end of most LDC's; exactly what the M49 was compared to a 67, a C12 or 251. That "Kind of Blue" sound nails it. Not a bright mic but plenty of top end and healthy proximity effect for close up vocals. I think the E49 is the bargain in LD mics right now. Sounds good on so many things.... but has near zero head grille mesh-its just a capsule on a (internally shock mounted)body.

An interesting record to listen to is Timeless, Martina McBride: stereo pair of [perfect] vintage M49's in the room on a live band (including piano).

Brad

[Dzoing]

Originally Posted by Brad Lunde

So, does the room sound really good?

Brad

Definitely not. It is just not so bad. I'll have to go closer to the hammers. I'll need to remove the front panels in order to avoid that boxy sound. But now the piano without panels is getting louder, so every body is going to play louder and I'll get more bleeding and less subtilities in the music... arf...

[Bob Olhsson]

I'd try out some Royer ribbons.The biggest challenge with an upright is being able to get far enough back without losing presence. They'll duck a small room better because they have a more even pattern than any LD condenser.

[T.RayBullard]

AKG 414s/Royer Ribbons/ gefell umt70S/schoeps MK2S pair can all give thrilling results. umt70s is my go to pair for that job.
I also am quite fond of the neumann TLM50 with pressure ball..very tight bass, and big sound.

Im not a DPA fan, but I have used them for that task with great results. (Jecklin Disc in the curve of the piano)

[idee und klang]

The piano is a very good german upright, voiced medium i.e. not too bright but not too mellow neigther.

Jazz trio together ("live") in relatively small room. Ok I'll have to experiment mic placement, deal with bleeding, etc. My question is more about wich kind of sound COLOR I might expect from that piano track using, say, one of these options:
- Neumann M149s
- Brauner VM1's
- DPA omnis

Haven't heard any of these, but I'd guess something like Brauner being on the bright and classical side, M149s classical too but softer, DPA more jazzy / rock due to close micking necessity...

Any thoughts? Any other suggestion, regarding the *color* I'd get on that piano?

I'd go with the VM1 in Cardios close to the hammers. The VM1 are perfect for Grand Piano (or Upright aswell). They are quite a bit more directed than M149 in cardiod. As all musicans are in the same room you have to go as close as possible and even then there might be a lot of drums on the mics, since a upright Piano is not that loud.
If the drummer is too lound you might aswell place non condenser mic (could even be a sm57) close to the hammers. Youse the braunders in the slow tunes, and in the loud tunes if you can, but if you get too much drums there, then you have the other mics, that could save the record.

Daniel
www.ideeundklang.com

[Trp]

Sorry, if this comes out as smart a$$, but just an idea...

You want to record a jazz piano trio with an upright in a not so great sounding room. Instead of throwing in some high end equipment in this situation I´d look for a different setting. Sounds like any school concert hall with a grand will deliver better results, no matter what the equipment is.

If the purpose of your question is to fool around in your own studio forget what i said. But if it´s about the final result I´d look for a good instrument and room first.

Not a very Gearslut-ish suggestion I guess...