Blumein Figure-8's

hywyn · 1st October 2003, 05:24 PM

Anyone using figure-8's such as Schoeps MK-8's for stereo recordings?
Would this compare well with the current crop of omni's (spaced)?

Steve

fifthcircle · 1st October 2003, 05:27 PM

You're going to be hard pressed to get better imaging that you can get with a Blumlein pair. I use my AKG426 stereo mic for this, but I've done it with others as well...

I often use it for orchestras and other large ensembles. In the studio, I'll use it for guitars, drums, etc...

--Ben

Thermionic · 1st October 2003, 07:57 PM

As a sidenote, here's a link to the recently published biog of Alan Blumlein:

http://www.doramusic.com/thisBook.htm

A true pioneer!

bjornson · 1st October 2003, 10:44 PM

I agree with Ben as long as your room doesn't have many "warts" and isn't too live on the backside of the pair.

hywyn · 2nd October 2003, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bjornson
I agree with Ben as long as your room doesn't have many "warts" and isn't too live on the backside of the pair.

Hi!
"Warts" is a term I'm unfamiliar with, (except for the stubborn ones you get on your skin)!

I've been told it's far better to have a seperate room with monitors to judge the Blumlein set-up. As I'm on my own here, I may have to play it safe with an M/S pair.
(I'll have two MK8 Schoeps capsules ready for the day I have an assistant!)

Steve

bjornson · 2nd October 2003, 05:41 AM

sorry... "warts" meaning stange anamolies. In my experience, a Blumlein pair can expose room weaknesses that other stereo micing techniques mask. If a room sounds kinda weird to my ear when i'm listening to the source, I'll use another method. But as posted earlier, when done right it sounds big and natural.....great!!!

hywyn · 2nd October 2003, 10:38 AM

Thanks for the replies!

Has anyone used "stereo imaging processing" in post production. I'm a bit concerned that it might be impossible to monitor properly on the day, and if I'm too close to the source, I'll have a hole in the middle of the stereo picture.

fifthcircle · 2nd October 2003, 05:16 PM

I use imaging adjustment occasionally when I master, but I'm very careful about how I do it... The first thing is not to use too much because you can really screw up an image.

I use a mutli-band tool (in Sequoia and Samplitude) and that can work well for firming the bass, opening the top, etc... Also, sometimes doing mid-side processing can work, but once again, not too much...

--Ben

Henrik · 2nd October 2003, 08:40 PM

Sorry about breaking in here, but I have a question regarding Blumlein setup. I may be recording a small jazz band sometime soon, which I have never done before. I got the idea of placing the musicians in a circle, facing each other, and placing a Blumlein pair in the middle of the circle. (I'm leaning towards renting a Royer SF-12).

Normally, when discussing Blumlein setup, it seems the assumption is that you have the ensemble to the mic's front, and let the backsides take care of the ambience. But in my setup there will be instruments coming into the the backside of the mics, which means they will be 180 degrees out of phase. Is this a problem?

Thanks
/Henrik

DigitMus · 3rd October 2003, 12:19 AM

It certainly could become a problem, but probably not a major one. I'd just put them in a semi-circle with the SF-12 facing them. (good mic choice, BTW)

Scott

stapesaudio · 3rd October 2003, 04:01 PM

I tried blumlein on a string quartet that was set up in a standard square formation, and put the set up in the middle of the group. This is very similar to what you are talking about with the jazz band, with instruments in a 360 degree arc. I had a lot of trouble getting the panning and phase coherency to work out with the spot mics. I didn't have a whole lot of time to set up, I mixed it live, and it was a less than stellar room for strings. I decided at that point blumlein with instruments all around was not a good idea, but it could be from those other factors. Next time I tried blumlein with a 180 degree arc, and it worked beautifully.

Erik Wofford
Stapes Audio

fifthcircle · 5th October 2003, 10:16 PM

Blumlein on a string quartet can be f-in amazing...

I just did this last night on my gig. AKG 426 in Blumlein positioned about 3-4 feet high and about 3 feet in front of the ensemble sitting in their normal configuration... Get this amazing intimate sound with perfect performance balance. Works every time.

--Ben

Bob Olhsson · 6th October 2003, 05:35 AM

The backside isn't nearly as big a problem as most people assume. This is because the sides of a figure-8 are the deadest of ANY mike pattern. In fact the way the other patterns are derived is by adding an omni/pressure element back into to the figure-8. A cardioid is literally half figure-8 and half omni.

hywyn · 6th October 2003, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fifthcircle
Blumlein on a string quartet can be f-in amazing...

I just did this last night on my gig. AKG 426 in Blumlein positioned about 3-4 feet high and about 3 feet in front of the ensemble sitting in their normal configuration... Get this amazing intimate sound with perfect performance balance. Works every time.

--Ben

For surround, do u think that with a pair of fig-8's positioned soundstage left and right, a pair of spaced omni's for the rear and a centre omni, err....for the centre, would work.
(I'm a newbie to surround!)

Steve

Henrik · 6th October 2003, 07:57 AM

Thanks for your replies regarding 360 degree micing!

Cheers
/Henrik

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1st October 2003, 05:24 PM	#1
hywyn Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: UK Posts: 76	Blumein Figure-8's Anyone using figure-8's such as Schoeps MK-8's for stereo recordings? Would this compare well with the current crop of omni's (spaced)? Steve

1st October 2003, 05:27 PM	#2
fifthcircle Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,299	You're going to be hard pressed to get better imaging that you can get with a Blumlein pair. I use my AKG426 stereo mic for this, but I've done it with others as well... I often use it for orchestras and other large ensembles. In the studio, I'll use it for guitars, drums, etc... --Ben __________________ Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Long Beach, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com

2nd October 2003, 05:16 PM	#8
fifthcircle Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,299	I use imaging adjustment occasionally when I master, but I'm very careful about how I do it... The first thing is not to use too much because you can really screw up an image. I use a mutli-band tool (in Sequoia and Samplitude) and that can work well for firming the bass, opening the top, etc... Also, sometimes doing mid-side processing can work, but once again, not too much... --Ben __________________ Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Long Beach, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com

5th October 2003, 10:16 PM	#12
fifthcircle Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,299	Blumlein on a string quartet can be f-in amazing... I just did this last night on my gig. AKG 426 in Blumlein positioned about 3-4 feet high and about 3 feet in front of the ensemble sitting in their normal configuration... Get this amazing intimate sound with perfect performance balance. Works every time. --Ben __________________ Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Long Beach, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com

1st October 2003, 07:57 PM	#3
Thermionic Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: UK Posts: 660	As a sidenote, here's a link to the recently published biog of Alan Blumlein: http://www.doramusic.com/thisBook.htm A true pioneer!

1st October 2003, 10:44 PM	#4
bjornson Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 533	I agree with Ben as long as your room doesn't have many "warts" and isn't too live on the backside of the pair.

2nd October 2003, 05:41 AM	#6
bjornson Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 533	sorry... "warts" meaning stange anamolies. In my experience, a Blumlein pair can expose room weaknesses that other stereo micing techniques mask. If a room sounds kinda weird to my ear when i'm listening to the source, I'll use another method. But as posted earlier, when done right it sounds big and natural.....great!!!

2nd October 2003, 10:38 AM	#7
hywyn Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: UK Posts: 76	Thanks for the replies! Has anyone used "stereo imaging processing" in post production. I'm a bit concerned that it might be impossible to monitor properly on the day, and if I'm too close to the source, I'll have a hole in the middle of the stereo picture.

2nd October 2003, 08:40 PM	#9
Henrik Gear maniac Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 190	Sorry about breaking in here, but I have a question regarding Blumlein setup. I may be recording a small jazz band sometime soon, which I have never done before. I got the idea of placing the musicians in a circle, facing each other, and placing a Blumlein pair in the middle of the circle. (I'm leaning towards renting a Royer SF-12). Normally, when discussing Blumlein setup, it seems the assumption is that you have the ensemble to the mic's front, and let the backsides take care of the ambience. But in my setup there will be instruments coming into the the backside of the mics, which means they will be 180 degrees out of phase. Is this a problem? Thanks /Henrik

3rd October 2003, 12:19 AM	#10
DigitMus Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SouthWest Florida Posts: 504	It certainly could become a problem, but probably not a major one. I'd just put them in a semi-circle with the SF-12 facing them. (good mic choice, BTW) Scott

3rd October 2003, 04:01 PM	#11
stapesaudio Gear Head Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: austin, tx Posts: 39	I tried blumlein on a string quartet that was set up in a standard square formation, and put the set up in the middle of the group. This is very similar to what you are talking about with the jazz band, with instruments in a 360 degree arc. I had a lot of trouble getting the panning and phase coherency to work out with the spot mics. I didn't have a whole lot of time to set up, I mixed it live, and it was a less than stellar room for strings. I decided at that point blumlein with instruments all around was not a good idea, but it could be from those other factors. Next time I tried blumlein with a 180 degree arc, and it worked beautifully. Erik Wofford Stapes Audio

6th October 2003, 05:35 AM	#13
Bob Olhsson Motown legend Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN Posts: 5,248	The backside isn't nearly as big a problem as most people assume. This is because the sides of a figure-8 are the deadest of ANY mike pattern. In fact the way the other patterns are derived is by adding an omni/pressure element back into to the figure-8. A cardioid is literally half figure-8 and half omni. __________________ Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233 Bob's room 615 385-8051 Music Industry 2.0

6th October 2003, 07:57 AM	#15
Henrik Gear maniac Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 190	Thanks for your replies regarding 360 degree micing! Cheers /Henrik

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