Live Rock + Compression, Feedback, Vocal Harmonies: I need your wisdom!!!

[jenkel16]

The signal coming out of the effects is going to be a line level signal and will go into the line inputs of the mixer. So , no worries about gain staging there. Another reason against having the processor on stage that I experienced the other night is that if it takes a dive then there is absolutely no chance of your vocal coming out of the PA. Kinda defeats the purpose of having the processor in the first place.

[Jim vanBergen]

You can get SCREAMING loud monitors with SM58, you don't need another mic. It's about having an understanding of gain stage, mixing, speaker patterns and acoustics.

-The stage monitor needs to be in the NULL of the vocal mic's pattern.
-The stage monitor does not need the FX being used for the mains for you to hear yourself and have proper pitch and timing.
-Stage monitor mixes should be PRE, not POST fader.
-If you are having significant feedback issues when you are rehearsing (no mains PA involved) and its only in the monitors, acquire a good 1/3 octave EQ to put in line between monitor send and monitor amplifier line, and get thee a real sound person who does monitors to come to your rehearsal.

The advice about making sure your mains are IN FRONT of your mics and front of stage is not just good advice, its IMPERATIVE from an acoustic perspective.

[kindkind]

can anyone give me a head start on gain staging?

this is what:

sm 58 mic into A and H mixwixard 16:2 (gain at 1/3)

full aux send level to tc voiceworks line input level knob at halfway conection = balanced line.

into a pedal unit here is where i find we must keep gain extremely low.. then that gets sent back into the mixer with the gain usually ending up at about a little over 1/3..
i guess it should be a slower gain ramp or something else. a lot of different stages here, if i understand what i am talking about.
I need to find out what range these knobs all represent in order to do this i expect.

don't really know what im Doing.how should the gain stages be set up?

[underworld]

so this thread is way out of date. but i was looking around for some opinions on the TC Helicon pedal.

anyway. it appears that a major issue with these voice boxes is the variation in gain staging- which is obviously (if you read the thread) a confusing point for people.

in a nutshell...

a mic has a very low level (in general). you, generally, need a preamplifier to bring the microphone level UP to a LINE level. to do this, you add amplification or GAIN. gain can occur in various STAGES in the chain. when you increase the GAIN on the preamp input ... when you move the fader above 0, when you move any EQ knob above 0 ... all of those add a gain stage to the signal. if you add gain plus boost the eq, plus push the fader, you are most likely overdriving the mic signal and increasing the chances of feedback. in a proper signal, your mic would have a nominal signal around 0db. when pushed through the rest of the mains/monitors (with proper EQ themselves) you will usually avoid feedback.

with a vocal processing pedal, you have a variety of settings/presets. each preset may have a variation in gain, in EQing, in the effects being applied, in additional signal (i.e. doubling or harmonies) - all of these can affect the "gain staging". imagine you have setting 1 which has a flat EQ. and setting 2 which adds 5 db at 2KHz and 3db at 800Hz - you are effectively increasing the gain/level by those amounts. when the signal goes into the Front of House (FOH) board, and you switch from setting 1 to setting 2 - it's like boosting the gain knob on the mixer .... and therefore increasing the likelihood of feedback because the soundman has probably set your gain staging on the board for setting 1.

to properly use a pedal like the VoiceLive, you would need to ensure that every setting you use emits a similar signal level on the output. guitar players do this with their rigs to ensure the sound level from one setting to the next isn't too loud/too soft ... users of voice processors should be expected to do the same.

[meshuggener33]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

If you want a real world, professional answer I'll give it to you, but it isn't going to be one that you like. I've never heard you and I don't know what you sound like, but you made one statement that tells me that you are fairly "green" as a vocalist, so...

You have two choices:
#1) stay with the stuff you have, continue to use it as a crutch and never improve much
#2) learn how to sing in tune with power and use processing to embellish something that is already good

A vocalist has two responsibilities... sing in tune and sing with enough support (power) to be heard. If you need the autotune to be in tune than you are being very lazy and you'll never learn to sing in tune. You don't allow your guitarists to play out of tune do you? Why should you be allowed to? Work on pitching!
You should be able to project above the band live.
I can't tell you how... you need to learn how to do it.
Go to a vocal coach.

It isn't easy my friend! If it was I'd be a famously wealthy vocalist myself.
It takes work and there is no box of circuits that is going to do it for you.

Every vocalist I have ever know that was any good in a band situation did it without anyone's help. I have mixed for quite a few good people, but my adding compression or FX only made them "sound" better. It didn't make them sound good. In fact, I use so little FX live that most people would say it is "dry." I do use compression and even if I use a lot I do it in a way that most people wouldn't notice it. Because I have mixed for over thirty years I know how to milk stuff and finesse equipment and introduce little nuances into the sound that compliments a singer.

Seriously, you need to re-think your situation.
Quit using the TC Helicon.
It needs to be out front.

About not being heard above the GTR player:
It's called using dynamics... if the band isn't using any then you can't either.
If you can't sing parts loud enough then you need to re-think the validity of the part.
If it REALLY needs to be sung softly then why is the band playing loud?

If an orchestra has all of the parts written fff (triple forte) and the oboe has one part written f (forte) he isn't going to be heard. It's called arranging and it applies to rock bands, too... all music in fact!

I replied to your post because I felt that the answers were dancing around the true issue. The answer is not about equipment and hooking it up. It is about YOU. This is your responsibity.

If you continue to rely on equipment for your inability to sing in tune and be heard then someone who can will come along and you are out of a gig.

Take my advice and do this for yourself. Work on pitching. Learn to project.

A great (or even good) musician sounds good regardless of the equipment.
I make my living dealing with equipment and making people sound better and I'll tell you that I can't make them sound good if they don't already sound good. I wish I could, but I can't... and I'm REAL GOOD at what I do! If someone sucks... they suck and I can't really fix it.

Example: I have played guitar since I could hold one, so I'm pretty good. I can go to Guitar Center and pick up ANY guitar and sound good on it. It isn't the guitar. Some are "better" and some rigs sound "better' for some styles. I can't really play classical guitar and no guitar or amp or device will allow me to do it either. I have to LEARN to do it!

I am being honest here my friend.

Practice WITHOUT anything other than a mic and a p.a. for a few months.
Then tell me that you aren't better.
You will be and this is the only way to get better.

Also, do not use in ears at this point.
It will confuse the issues.
I have seen quite a few bands sound worse after using in ears.
I had an eight piece C&W band realize that they sound better w/o their in ears this past weekend.
Time constraints meant they had to use wedges and the CD I burned tells the tale.

LOOSE THE TC HELICON TONIGHT AT YOUR NEXT PRACTICE SESSION OR GIG!
It is not a bad piece and a good soundman can make you sound cool if he uses at F.O.H.

Also, I have run VERY large monitor rigs.
There is rarely any channel compression when using wedges.
If it is, then the compression is slight.

Are you under the inpression that that box (or any box for that matter) will make you sound louder when you sing quiet? A compressor only "turns things down." If you try to have the compressor turn down the loud parts so that the soft parts are at the proper level then when you are not singing it is going to feedback like a bitch. This is a completely wrong and incorrect use of the device. I'd like to drive my car to Europe, but it keeps filling with water!

Re-think things my friend.
I think that you already know this.

Sincerely,
Danny Brown

What a freaking fantastic answer. You my friend are a testament to why I still search topics on gearslutz.