Micing a church organ, choir and quartet with 2 mics?!

[mosrite]

Is this completely insane or is it doable?

The only thing that raises doubts in my mind is the inclusion of the organ. If it were just the Choir, quartet etc then I dont see why not. Not having the "spot" mic control over the other elements when the organ is involved might be asking for trouble, any opinions to the contrary?

[T.RayBullard]

It has been done in the past many times. Definitely doable.

Waterlily Acoustics does this sort of thing exclusively. Itll be a refreshing break from thousands of track counts and editing ad nauseum. Just make sure that main pair is in the right spot.

Teddy

[JazzYoda]

Churches usually have great sound. I'd say go blumlein and hope the organist doesn't play too loud!

[mosrite]

Itll be a refreshing break from thousands of track counts and editing ad nauseum. Just make sure that main pair is in the right spot

This is exactly my way of thinking! I really like the idea of keeping it simple: great mics and great positioning. And in terms of editing, go with the mistakes (as long as they are not too bad!). Of course in practice it wont be easy. I suppose with spots people are generally covering themselves for the mix, giving themselves a bit more control.

I suppose the organs interaction with the church IS the instrument....

and hope the organist doesn't play too loud!

Good point.

[T.RayBullard]

It is the sort of thinking that I am adopting in my own business. Ive grown disheartened(both as a classical singer and recording engineer) with the stream over over edited , over produced , lifeless classical recordings that are commonplace these days. I am trying my very best to buck that trend. So far ive managed to do well, and hope that I can maintain this success. I find myself more and more often reaching for classical recordings from the 40s and 50s, Decca particularly..and some DG.
Of course there are some instances where the director will not accept less than a stereo pair per section, and I have to humbly answer his wishes. Overall though, ive been able to keep things minimal. It has been a blessing.

Originally Posted by mosrite

This is exactly my way of thinking! I really like the idea of keeping it simple: great mics and great positioning. And in terms of editing, go with the mistakes (as long as they are not too bad!). Of course in practice it wont be easy. I suppose with spots people are generally covering themselves for the mix, giving themselves a bit more control.

I suppose the organs interaction with the church IS the instrument....



Good point.

[mosrite]

It is the sort of thinking that I am adopting in my own business. Ive grown disheartened(both as a classical singer and recording engineer) with the stream over over edited , over produced , lifeless classical recordings that are commonplace these days. I am trying my very best to buck that trend. So far ive managed to do well, and hope that I can maintain this success. I find myself more and more often reaching for classical recordings from the 40s and 50s, Decca particularly..and some DG.
Of course there are some instances where the director will not accept less than a stereo pair per section, and I have to humbly answer his wishes. Overall though, ive been able to keep things minimal. It has been a blessing.

Its great to know that others also subsribe to this philosophy. Not to say any approach is the correct way but the whole idea behind this approach simply feels right to me. I think in a lot of ways its probably harder as the initial balance is so much more critical but that, to me, is part of the beauty of it. It also feels more like the documenting of something: the acoustic, the musicians, the moment. And that idea I really dig.

[pkautzsch]

Just come home from singing a modern oratorio-style work. percussion on the right, harp, violin, flute on the left, a few singers in the middle.
choir on and under the rear balcony, the lower one with timpani.
if I'd record that I'd do five main pairs and nothing else.

but as to organ/choir/4tet: if they're all around the organ, it's gonna be fine since the organ just is part of the ensemble. any main mic technique will do if carefully placed.
if organ from rear and the rest from the front, it's more difficult. I'd probably go for spaced omnis which just sound great for organ (and are good for nearly everything when applied carefully). So get a good balance between organ and choir, and then get the spacing according to what sounds good to you and gives no hole in the middle of the choir/4tet. You'll probably end up in a typical main pair position for the choir - organ can have much more reverberation and distance. Don't panic.

[ghellquist]

It is definitely doable. It may take quite a bit of work though. But the result may very well be magic.

If the organ, the choir and the musicians are high up next to a large church organ I think you will want to have really high mic stands available. If they use a smaller "choir-organ" in the front of the church you will search for a different mic position. In any case, high mic stands may be very useful.

Personally I would use my loved pair of DPA 4003 for this kind of work. I guess I simply preferr omnis whenever possible. I would visit the church several times, listening to the room and trying to find where it sounds best. If possible I would record several of the rehearsals with different mics and in different positions. One of those positions is going to be the best.

Gunnar

[T.RayBullard]

Yes...if Decca and RCA can do a single stereo pair and have it sound amazing...you know it is possible.

If the acoustics suck, id use cards..if they are fantastic, I dont think any setup will make as much of an impression as Blumlein...IMHO, it is the most natural, accurate array...stunning results if done right.

[sonare]

"Nostalgia isn't what it used to be." If you ignore the solo piano (usuallly only a pair) you would be hard-pressed to find anything at any time from the labels cited as having been done with a stereo pair.

One must not forget two things-- you are usually depending on the musicians to arrive at a musical balance (hopefully where your mics are) and that mcis do not work the ways ears (with eyes) do-- you often need the visual cues to maintain the balance and detail that it often takes spot mics to do.

I would REALLY prefer that 2 mics are enough most of the time, but in the sound triangle (musicians, hall, and the music itself) you usually only get two, and sometimes only one. And you can NEVER control which of the three you have to work with!

Rich

[mosrite]

Thanks for all the opinions. I might end up spotting the quartet and the woodwind. The choir will balance to the main pair. And the organ...well not sure about that. hoping it will just fill the acoustic in the right way and not inflict itself in a negative way on any of the other elements. I have the whole day and I reckon most of that will be spent getting the balance for the stereo pair. Would love to end up only using that in the mix.

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by mosrite

Thanks for all the opinions. I might end up spotting the quartet and the woodwind. The choir will balance to the main pair. And the organ...well not sure about that. hoping it will just fill the acoustic in the right way and not inflict itself in a negative way on any of the other elements. I have the whole day and I reckon most of that will be spent getting the balance for the stereo pair. Would love to end up only using that in the mix.

well you could not bring anything else to assure that. i bet youd be real careful with the main pair then.

[pkautzsch]

Just another few thoughts, since I'm gonna be in a similar situation in July.

When I start to spot something, I usually end up spotting everything. If the players are spotted and thus get more detail, I find the choir needs some detail too, depending on the music of course. Don't know how this behaves with coincident techniques like Blumlein, but with good old AB one often gets a lot of depth which I somehow want to control later. Have also done combined orchestra backseat/choir spots.
So in your case, if I'd spot anything, then I'd probably do the main pair for the instruments (which, I suppose, will be in front of the choir), and put up spots for the ensemble behind them.
Another approach can be using the main pair to get that optimum organ sound and spot instruments and choir. Or maybe two "main" pairs, one for the organ, one for the rest.