Playing Live with PreRecorded Tracks

[amost]

Go to a Shania Twain concert and mute the band - I'm just sayin'...

[themaidsroom]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

the following is 100% opinion:

if i wanted to hear a band's cd i'd buy the cd.

a live show is supposed to be way less sterile and scientific than a recording. it's supposed to be different and exciting, and i think it's a huge crock of shit when any band has the nerve to rely on a click and use prepared tracks. it's all an illusion. if they sound "good" because of this, they're lying to you. strip a band down to amps and drums in a room with a shitty PA, if they still sound good, THAT'S a great live show. not this crap you're describing.

i agree 100%
i saw jeff buckley sing at sine, through a pa found on the street, 30 times, dented 58,
no reverb, goosebumps

it is bubblegum being sold as mozart , to quote mr. cohen, that has destroyed
this business: if they can't blow you away live, they suck, move on




be well


- jack

[Farview]

My band does this. We only have drums, guitar and vocals, so we fly in bass. There are two or three songs that have some keys that get flown in as well.

All the vocals are live and we will adlib a bit, we juts can't change the arangement.


We've done it a couple different ways. We have used a CD player, ipod, and a laptop. It all works the same, I (drummer) get a click in my phones (in-ears, whatever) and the backing tracks go to the front of house.

If something screws up, I shut off the backing tracks and we just play through the song without bass.

[CommunityMart]

Originally Posted by amost

Like I say I ain't bragging on playing with tracks. These are bigger venues, not humongous though and generally the audience doesn't have an idea. Occasionally a guitarist in the audience'll ask someone..."who's playing bass?" Busted.

I would get so embarrassed, I'd be ashamed of myself.

Does that make sense?

[joeshambro]

i was doing a live recording with a band fairly well known, in the charts right now -- and they're a pretty decent live band. they've all got pretty good chops. however, their label was insisting they use pre-recorded tracks on their singles -- percussion, vocal doubling, some guitar doubles -- to make it sound exactly like their album so the girls would scream even louder. needless to say they had massive issues because they were so used to doing everything themselves, and ended up not using the pre-recorded tracks (which, as i heard, incensed the label).

i recorded the same band a few months later, and they were using the pre-recorded tracks for good.

[joeshambro]

Originally Posted by CommunityMart

I would get so embarrassed, I'd be ashamed of myself.

Does that make sense?

i would be beside myself with shame.

[Dysanfel]

Technology has allowed me to rid myself of a band entirely, its just my voice, a lappy, and my guitars. Its far more intimate and just as effective.

Times have changed, its 2008 not 1988.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

... it's a huge crock of shit ....

Down this road lies Ashlee Simpson and all that's ghastly and perverse and deceitful about modern music.

[bove]

If a band wants backing vocals, or strings, or extra guitar sounds, or whatever, why don't they just get some real musicians to play?

Real live musicians are great!


Otherwise, why even bother playing at all? If they really want it to sound like the album, the band could just chill on stage and play their CD for the fans. They don't even have to bring instruments... saves on cartage costs.

[cppi]

Over the summer our truck was hired to track a large festival (FREEDOM FEST 07) for GMT Network out of Atlanta Ga. A HD truck with 12 hd cameras' 2 Jumbo Trons, over 100k in people, in Dallas Tx. 34 bands, over 25 hours of record time for broadcast releases. Out of 34 bands (4) did not use backing tracks! We had 82 lines back to the truck to track 48. The producer of the event left 16 tracks open for that. Some bands had stereo stems, some had mono and stereo tracks, nothing less than 8 tracks were sent to us. Any thing from stereo backing gtr's to fatten things up to strings parts, synth parts, vocal parts etc. I cant recall any bands using tracks for members not there, mostly to add and to fatten things up. I hate to admit it but 99% of them played well with them and it didn't sound canned. That might be because the bands knew how to play with the tracks. I came away with mixed emotions about this ...... I think it came down to how each of the bands used them with their preformances.

[CrankyRayHanky]

I understand the idea of a great raw band, a la SRV & Double Trouble. But let's not dismiss the idea that throwing up backing tracks and playing to clicks takes a lot of work and pays off huge--Joe Blow Ticketbuyer doesn't know and doesn't care how it's done! Entertainment...

[mohthom]

I kind of think about it like going to see the Royal Shakespeare Company and having two of the cast on video screens - I didn't pay to see videos (no matter how well they 'integrate' or how 'big,' 'amazing' or cost-effective it makes the show.

One of my lecturers put it best for me during a lecture on live music (guess which Cage piece we were referencing). He said
"The reason we go to see Symphony orchestras instead of buying the CDs and listening to the radio is to see someone sweat and burn calories, as well as to see something that may be original or inspired."

I would NEVER equate hearing a recording of the Rite of Spring to hearing a live performance, and I think the same ideal rings true for rock'n'roll as well. I'm disgusted by the sound of a clav instead of a celesta though (can anyone say amateur orchestra?), so I realise that I am a little extreme on all of this.

Even the biggest and best bands CAN play live without backing tracks. From Robbie Williams (20+ piece band) to Seasick Steve (Youtube him if you didn't see Jools) I nearly always find the best sets to be raw, energetic and spontaneous. There's nothing worse than the clip of Nirvana on Top of the Pops.

Didn't Monty Python get sued for playing all the parts in Life of Brian themselves? I feel that way about pre-recorded backing for rock'n'roll. But not Life of Brian. Strange, eh?

MohThoM

[bove]

If a big corporation wants to produce a "live" concert, sell lots of tickets, and make large profits for their shareholders (in the short term) by using less musicians, and using click tracks and pre-recorded parts, that's their right... and everyone has the right to run their business how they want. But if they want to truly inspire audiences with great art, (rock, ballet, whatever...) they need to just provide the real deal. That will also insure audiences keep coming back for more... Live music, and it's unpredictability can be felt, with all it's inherent imperfections and amazing moments of beauty. That's what live concerts should be about!

[Eide]

Ok, bringing this thread back from sleep...

Agust 2008 - What is the latest regarding playing multitracked tracks off? Still Alesis HD24?

I would be so happy if zoom or roland or anyone of these had an purpose-made backing track machine... 4, 6 or 8 tracks... easy to use on a dark stage for a clumsy drummer... flash drive, or HD... 3 hours of internal memory, or more... other clever things like a built in bacup system, and maybe an headphone amp for the drummer...

something like that yes please.

I need to get a multi track player for a live show now basically. Is HD24 the only option?

[Eide]

Ok, these things from Edirol (Roland) has 4 outputs:

R-4

R-44

Apparently people are using it for playig live tracks. Anyone tried these?

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by Analog

Also, why would anyone choose minidisc over a simple CD player, doesn't the latter sound better?

Because on a CD you probably have a lot of songs/tracks. With minidisc, you can make it so it only has ONE song per disc. So things like playing the wrong song (i.e. Ashlee Simpson on SNL) can't happen. Unless the sound guy puts the wrong disc in. Versus some foreign CD player playing the wrong track. Or the same track twice. Or like my cars CD player, screws up on the current track and just skips to the next one.

It's done, the rules of competition make it so. The business side deems you to use minimal employees to stay afloat and maximize profits. To the extreme on some cruise ships I've been on. One player and a midi-ized laptop. Ask for something not in their midi library, and your SOL.

Not everyone can play to a click track IMO. The jazz band in HS, College, Army, and other places often took the A section an extra time unintentionally. Such things happen when you're trying to play from memory. Or the bass player would drop an entire measure. Despite being cheating to some extent, you've still got to be on the top of your game to be able to do it. Most drummers I know can't even keep a steady tempo, much less play to a click track. It's too easy to get out of phase with the pre-recorded stuff. There's no person there banging their head, tapping their foot, or marking time to keep the beat for you when things get a little blurred accoustically. Like fans screaming so loud that you can't hear anything. Even yourself playing, singing, or beating the snot out of metal trashcan lids.

[Zionpro]

Well, I've had my experience with this...

Around late 90s I first encountered this obviously occuring with a few local Rap groups...they were using prerecorded tracks with main vox turned very low and adlibs...it made their show sound soo professional (ESPECIALLY for Rap). But I was confused about how I felt about it...well, honestly I talked shit about it.

Flash forward 7 years and when faced with my first solo performance since a teen, I opted to use backing tracks to help out. My backing tracks were adlibs and sound efx...All the complex parts were done live by me...

after the show, I got props from the audience, but several regulars (I frequented this venue alot) came up and commented on my backing tracks...saying they;d respect my show better sans the backing vox....They swore I didn't need them, blah blah blah.

mainly it's other musicians, producers, artists who sometimes seem to have a problem with this. Normal listeners just want a good honest show...And I assure you doing a show properly with backing tracks isn't always easy...it takes skill/practice to do this effectively...I don't see a problem when done as an additive/complement to the sound and not a way to cover your ass....

just my 2 cents

[Drum9uy]

I'm the drummer for my band and we'll do this sparingly but only for when it really is necessary to the song. Out of 18 of our songs we only use it on 2 - we play hiphop/rnb but we keep it simple for the most part - live drums, keys, bass, singer, rapper. For one of the songs though we have a gothic sounding Latin choir track with some extra strings behind it - it's really part of the song and we're not going to hire a 60 piece choir to sit behind us in a club.

Other than that, if you're having a ton of vocal backing tracks, extra guitars, I think that's kinda pushing the limit like others have said, it shouldn't sound exactly like the CD. It's why we'll even change parts of songs live. Being hiphop and rnb probably about 1/3 of our album is mostly electronic, but it hardly ever is live. Live is an experience, keep it that way.

[BigBadJohn]

[quote=henryrobinett;727519]I can still remember a time when overdubbing was considered cheating. It still is considered cheating in jazz circles, though it's often done.

[quote=henryrobinett;726256]No one yet has responded to my question I posed twice regarding the difference between this and overdubbing in the studio. Why do some consider one cheating and the other not?

I'm a jazz musician. Jazz is built on the live performance model. For the last year or so I've been toying with the idea of using Ableton Live to augment some more convoluted tunes that would be impossible to play without adding a compliment of musicians we can't afford.


Henry,

I would be really interested to hear more about how Ableton is working out for you in a jazz context. Is your band playing mostly mostly electric or acoustic instruments?

Also, it's true about jazz musicians and overdubs. On The real McCoy, there's a place on either Passion Dance or Five by Four where Joe comes in kind of funny after Elvin's solo, but they keep it because the overall track was so great.

Finally regarding jazz and loops- Herbie Hancock recorded a great record in 1972 called Sexant. The first tune has the band playing over a sequenced loop of synthesizer sounds. It's a cool record.

Best,

John

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by BigBadJohn

Henry,

I would be really interested to hear more about how Ableton is working out for you in a jazz context. Is your band playing mostly mostly electric or acoustic instruments?

Also, it's true about jazz musicians and overdubs. On The real McCoy, there's a place on either Passion Dance or Five by Four where Joe comes in kind of funny after Elvin's solo, but they keep it because the overall track was so great.

Finally regarding jazz and loops- Herbie Hancock recorded a great record in 1972 called Sexant. The first tune has the band playing over a sequenced loop of synthesizer sounds. It's a cool record.

Best,

John

No where at the moment. The band is in stasis. We're not doing anything at the moment. I got too busy with other things. I'll get back to it. Live maybe the best avenue to start the ball rolling.

I don't know. I upgraded to Live 7 and still haven't done anything with it.

I know exactly the moment you're talking about on Real McCoy! Great record!

Sextant! I saw that band too. I didn't know there was a loop. Come to think of it they did have some Patrick Gleason (he was there) synth preparations.

[DarkEcho]

I incorporate a lot of sound effects and samples in my music, so I dont really have an option other than running those tracks and keeping a click going behind the band.

Similar situation with NIN im sure- unless you want to somehow setup all of those samples for the entire show onto some sort of pad controller... It seems like way too much work versus just playing the backing tracks behind the band..

I see no shame in that.

Like said before- use the backing tracks to Augment (add to) your line up.. but you should not be up there lip syncing to tracks of yourself, or having anyone pretend to be playing when the track is doing the work..

Anything you are physically capable of playing, you should be playing, if you dont have a bassist- there is no shame in running a backing track.

[jensenmann]

I´ve been doing this "cheating" since the early nineties. First with a bunch of Akai samplers and internal sequencer, then with ADATs, MDs and upto now with HD24s. The HD24s are the best solution for me until today. I would not use anything optical because of fog on stage. Tapes are out of question but the modern equivalent of samplers might be pretty good for this task. There´s a bunch of workstation-like keyboards which might fit for what you need. But I have no expierience with this.

To all the cheating-shouters out there: go home, this is 2008 not 1978. The times are over when musicians had to proove that they are better than the next band on stage. The good songs are already written. Today a lot of what counts is sound. And these MT-machines help to deliver good sound to the people. And they want to hear good sound. Most people are bored from what another rock-trio is capable to deliver. All the bands with the better musicians already have played. Must of todays musicians can´t compete with them. Sound is our chance to bring music forward.

[Croaker]

Originally Posted by Sqye

and the audience LOVES it.

MOST OF THE TIME, they love a band that actually SOUNDS HUGE,
PRODUCED, AND RIGHT, AND LIKE THE RECORDING.

Not me, I hate when the band sounds just like the CD at a live show. I quess it depends on the kind of show to some extent. If its a jazz gig I wanna experience the players. I wanna hear a little something extra. I wanna see some extended jamming and musicianship. I like when a song goes off on a tangent and somehow makes it back, and most of all I wanna feel the ebb and flow of a live performance not a click track(even if it sounds good and is like the CD)....but thats me.

I can handle certain sound effects and stuff added for effect, I saw Pink Floyd do dark side and it was amazing. I wouldnt want to see buddy guy with B3 tracks though if ya know what I mean.


YMMV.

aloha

[BigBadJohn]

jensennman

If what you say is true about the best songs, and the best players all being in the past then music is dying. The way things sound is really important, but I don't think that you can replace music with sound. If you say "well, I'm into good sound" for example - O.K. good-sounding what? Good sounding music, right? I think that some of what you said is true. But, I also think that you are going too far in suggesting that "sound" is, or should be a replacement for good music (including good writing and good playing).

Best,

John

[Croaker]

Originally Posted by jensenmann

To all the cheating-shouters out there: go home, this is 2008 not 1978. The times are over when musicians had to proove that they are better than the next band on stage. The good songs are already written. Today a lot of what counts is sound. And these MT-machines help to deliver good sound to the people. And they want to hear good sound. Most people are bored from what another rock-trio is capable to deliver. All the bands with the better musicians already have played. Must of todays musicians can´t compete with them. Sound is our chance to bring music forward.

wow.......maybe thats the reason I have only bought 10 CD,s in the last six years.

the last thing I wanna hear are mediocre musicians that have good sound. (especially if I am paying for it) Of course when I am listening to great musicians perform I would prefer great sound. When I say "that sounds good" it is a given that the playing/song is good. If what you are saying about todays musicians is true then they better start practicing or Im not listening to them and I am sure as hell not buying any of their music no matter how good the sound is.

Besides its not about proving that you are better as a musician. If you want to put music out there for people to listen too, with your message, gut feeling, your soul, for money or just for fun..whatever. You should at least have enough commitment to your craft and profession to be able to play it. Dont get me wrong, I agree good sound is very important, its just not a replacement for good playing/songwriting.

Like I said earlier , incorporating sound effects and such into your show to enhance or augment can be cool as long as it is not a replacement for playing. Again thats only my opinion and what I like personally.

Originally Posted by BigBadJohn

jensennman

If what you say is true about the best songs, and the best players all being in the past then music is dying. The way things sound is really important, but I don't think that you can replace music with sound. If you say "well, I'm into good sound" for example - O.K. good-sounding what? Good sounding music, right? I think that some of what you said is true. But, I also think that you are going too far in suggesting that "sound" is, or should be a replacement for good music (including good writing and good playing).

Best,

John

100%

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by BigBadJohn

jensennman

If what you say is true about the best songs, and the best players all being in the past then music is dying. The way things sound is really important, but I don't think that you can replace music with sound. If you say "well, I'm into good sound" for example - O.K. good-sounding what? Good sounding music, right? I think that some of what you said is true. But, I also think that you are going too far in suggesting that "sound" is, or should be a replacement for good music (including good writing and good playing).

Best,

John

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