SAX and flute mics?

[funka]

Can some of you guys propose me some references that works fine to record SAX and/or flute? The must would be that I can use those mics for other purposes too...
AKG BXLS?
small or large diaphragms?...Tell me your experiences...

Thank you slutz

[StefanM]

Sennheiser MKH-40, MKH-800 (more flute)

Cheers,
Stefan

[MDM]

AKG 414 U87

[henryrobinett]

Part of it depends on the sax and the player, of course. And alto is different from a tenor and both are different from a soprano, or even a Baritone. And alto, for me, does best with a ribbon, like AEA R84. Depending on the player, instrument and sound ones going after, that ribbon might also work well on Tenor, which can be dark, so Ive had great success with a Peluso 22 251. Soprano R84 for sure.

Flute, Ribbon absolutely. Just be certain to use a windscreen.

Of course you can use those mics for other things as well.

So U67 (not a fan) , 251 (various clones) or U47 (various) or the ribbons like RCA 77dx, 44, AEA44, R84, Royer 121 or Peluso R-14 are all mics I've used with varying success and I would recommend.

[funka]

Hum, that's not cheap!!
Thank you for the refs.

[henryrobinett]

You posted this in the High End. What did you expect?

[funka]

Yeah, I know, just that I wasn't prepared to the price of the senheiser MKH-40...that's all...
Keep going on giving me your thoughts.

[Killahurts]

Earthworks SR77

SDC, cardioid,

Very good on sax, flute, acoustic guitar and a thousand other things.

[dokushoka]

I have gotten ok results using a u47 on alto sax. That is a tough instrument to record though!

[beats workin']

a relatively inexpensive all around mic that's great for sax is a neumann 582H with the cardoid M71 capsule. not a 67 or 47 but very close to that sound. has lots of top and handles transients very well. around 2k. other than that, the r84 or even an re20 would work very well. would not use a 414, for sure.
david lawrence

[Pepe Ortega]

Pearlman TM-1 with High cut sounds great on flute. I really love this comb.
You can use pearlman on voices and many others...

[rwhitney]

To add to the list of ribbon mics, I suggest the Coles 4040. It's brighter than, say, the Royer R121, but still quite forgiving on anything that tends toward harshness. A great all-round mic.

[wallace]

I've used the Ifet7 for both and it's worked out well.

[lm66]

I like EV RE20 for saxes (more on tenor, alto and barytone but not so much on soprano).
For a smoother sound Sennheiser 441 may be a good choice.
414 is also fine with saxes and bass clarinet.

For flute, I had recently quite good results with an AKG 414 (B-ULS with Jim Williams mods).
Schoeps (CMC6/MK4 for the ones I own) may be fine too.

Only my 2cts...

[jdunn]

Try a Crowley & Tripp Proscenium ribbon on the flute.

On sax I've had good results with a Soundelux U95S (also with a few Audio Upgrades tweaks).

I usually go with a tube mic pre on horns. It can help to keep the high end from sounding harsh when close micing. Not a dark tube mic pre though, something good.

[SoundEng1]

I Tried the Sony C800g on Tenor and i was really surprised, it sounded Great.
on Flute try the AEA R92, Really nice...

[wolfhound]

I'm a sax and flute player, I can say that I hate the RE20 (sorry lm66), people try to put that on my tenor all the time and I've banned it. The best results have been with a U87 (which is also great multi-purpose)....tube 47 can be good but there's problems with the proximity effect so I use it in omni if that's an option. Fet 47 works good on Bari sax though.

[funka]

Thank you so much for those propositions!
I will try do decide on some of them...
More experiences?

[funka]

Ah...out of subject but just to tell you all that I just tested my new aurora16 tonight and I must say it sounds damn awesome!! I hear the difference with my "old" RME ADI DS, no problem: the stereo width/image is much better defined with the aurora, I think it is the most important gain in quality from the RME.
I needed a 16 channels converter and I finaly decided to buy it while reading posts here on gearslutz, and I really do NOT regret it.

[thenoiseflower]

Coles 4040 on the sax,
414's are exellent also
441's are really smooth with a little bit of a charcater thing going on

flute!!!
and i know im gonna get fire for this but,
rode NT-1, for flute is very very nice, easily placeable in a mix and not too much need for compression , vey good app. for the NT-1

( not a 1A i havent acctualy tried it on flute, but i dont like the newer 1A's, i may be wrong)

[sunflute]

Some Good Mics for Flute:

Ribbons

Crowley & Tripp Proscenium
Royer SF-1
Royer R-122
AEA R84
Beyer M160
Beyer M500



Small Diaphragm Condensers:

Sennheiser MkH 40
Schoeps CMC6 MK4
DPA 4061
B&K 4003 with the close micing grid.
Peluso CEMC6
Rode NT5

Tube Microphone

Groove Tubes GT 44

Good Luck
Peace
Marco

[picksail]

AEA R84 has never let me down on either of these instruments.

[funka]

Some Good Mics for Flute:

Ribbons

Crowley & Tripp Proscenium
Royer SF-1
Royer R-122
AEA R84
Beyer M160
Beyer M500



Small Diaphragm Condensers:

Sennheiser MkH 40
Schoeps CMC6 MK4
DPA 4061
B&K 4003 with the close micing grid.
Peluso CEMC6
Rode NT5

Tube Microphone

Groove Tubes GT 44

For ribbon, small diaphs and tubes, what are your favorite ones?
Which ones are more simple to place? Most flexible? (for flute and sax, do I need 2 different mics, or one could do it...?)
I would love to get creamy mids...but still with a good definition in highs, clear, but not harsh.
I'd also like to have a mic(or 2) that can handle high SPLs without clipping/distortions...

thank you for sharing.

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by funka

I would love to get creamy mids...but still with a good definition in highs, clear, but not harsh.
I'd also like to have a mic(or 2) that can handle high SPLs without clipping/distortions...

thank you for sharing.

If you want high definition in the highs and warm mids I suggest recording in stereo and doing a combination of 1 Ribbon and 1 small diaphragm condenser (cardioid).

You have to play around with it alot to find a setup that will not give you phase problems (it also depends on the style of playing of the flute player). If a player blows hard, some of the high notes will tend to project much faster than the low notes, making it really difficult to control phase issues. With players who blow lightly, it is much easier to record without phase problems.

If you are recording in a room with not so great acoustics I would recommend the Peluso CEMC6 and a Beyer M160, and record the flute in stereo. That is if you are on a budget. If money is no object then I would go with a Sennheiser MKH40 and a Crowley & Tripp Proscenium. You can't really get better than that for flute.

AS John La Grou of Millennia Media once told me "the best recording of flute I did with a Sennheiser MKH 40" and I totally agree with that.

Good Luck,
Peace
Marco

[jnorman]

hey marco - can you give a little more detail about what you mean by recording the flute in stereo with one ribbon and one SD condenser? using two different mics like that will "pull" the flute image away from the middle and split it towards the sides. i can see using those two mics, but blending them together in the middle, rather than as a stereo pair. i used that technique on the first CD i did for RoseWynde.

[sunflute]

hey jnorman,

Nice to hear from you. Well what I mean is, applying standard stereo techniques to deal with the phase issue but then blending the signals together to create a sound that represents the full range of the instrument. The thing is that one has to be able to capture what's comng out of the body of the instrument as well as what's coming out of the headjoint as well. The only way to balance the speed of those 2 sounds (and they are different) is to use either XY or Blumlein pairs. When one blends those 2 signals and the phase is correct, one gets a beautiful natural representation of the instrument with a lot of detail as well.

Does this make sense to you?

Peace
Marco

I haven't figured out yet how to get a natural sound out of spaced omnis (up close that is), but I'll keep on experimenting in the future.

Originally Posted by jnorman

hey marco - can you give a little more detail about what you mean by recording the flute in stereo with one ribbon and one SD condenser? using two different mics like that will "pull" the flute image away from the middle and split it towards the sides. i can see using those two mics, but blending them together in the middle, rather than as a stereo pair. i used that technique on the first CD i did for RoseWynde.

[jnorman]

marco - when i used tha ttechnique on 'walking tune", i used two royer r-121s and an AKG C481. the c481 was about 2' out in front looking down at the middle of the instrument. the first royer was positioned about 3' out from the end of the flute, looking endways at the instrument from above, and the other royer was about 5 feet out front looking at the middle of the instrument. i tried a variety of mixing versions, placing the akg in the center and panning the two ribbons out at a lower level, for ambience - that worked pretty well - and also using one ribbon and the akg as a stereo pair, panned out, with some top rolled off the akg and top added to the royer to amke them sound more similar. i also tried just the two ribbons, just the front ribbon, and just the akg. i think i woulnd up using the akg and the endwise royer blended together and panned just barely left and right. i agree that a blend of ribbon and condenser can make a sound that neither can make on its own. take care.

[AB3]

R84 on flute - awesome!

Originally Posted by picksail

AEA R84 has never let me down on either of these instruments.

[sunflute]

Originally Posted by jnorman

marco - when i used tha ttechnique on 'walking tune", i used two royer r-121s and an AKG C481. the c481 was about 2' out in front looking down at the middle of the instrument. the first royer was positioned about 3' out from the end of the flute, looking endways at the instrument from above, and the other royer was about 5 feet out front looking at the middle of the instrument. i tried a variety of mixing versions, placing the akg in the center and panning the two ribbons out at a lower level, for ambience - that worked pretty well - and also using one ribbon and the akg as a stereo pair, panned out, with some top rolled off the akg and top added to the royer to amke them sound more similar. i also tried just the two ribbons, just the front ribbon, and just the akg. i think i woulnd up using the akg and the endwise royer blended together and panned just barely left and right. i agree that a blend of ribbon and condenser can make a sound that neither can make on its own. take care.

Did you have trouble getting the phase of both mics right?

I have found that it is easier to get a ribbon and a condenser to work together, but to get two condensers to match phase wise when recording an instrument is difficult. That's why I revert to using standard stereo techniques when recording instruments.

Peace
Marco

[jnorman]

no phase issues. that was the first CD i ever did, and i checked phase as i placed the mics, drew charts, and marked each mic position (height, distance, angle) for subsequent overdubs. i was very particular (my wife might say peculiar) at that time, and actually marked where each of the flutist's feet should be also :-) but either way, flipping the phase switch will generally aleviate phase problems between two mics. it gets a little trickier with three mics. i have actually had more phase problems with coincident setups than i ever had with ORTF or NOS. i dont think i ever had an XY setup where i didnt need to flip the phase on one mic - same with blumlein.