#31
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #31
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roonsbane's Avatar
 
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Location: Saint Paul, MN
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Lots of live to 2 track stuff around our stations, or any station for that matter. Most impressively my colleague Sam Hudson mixing Prairie Home Companion on a Yamaha PM5D on the side of the stage amazingly on 7506 headphones as the often last minute chaos happens. Garrison wants him very close by to be ready for last minute changes. Also, we are getting most of the same bands on SNL and the late night talk shows often the day after those performances playing live in our studios several times a week. They are multi-tracked, but rarely revisited and often live on the air. Lets not forget about 35 years of "Saint Paul Sunday" also "Performance Today" Perf. chats which are always live to 2, MN orch, MN opera, as well as most of my weekly SPCO recordings when I can mix on speakers. Also, national SPCO live broadcasts which we also have to do the broadcast mix with a host for, unlike many other stations.

There are so many different kinds of gear options to get all of this work done well. Analog or Digital, if you can't get a great sound from great performances, rarely is it the gear's fault.
Cameron
#32
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roonsbane View Post
LMost impressively my colleague Sam Hudson mixing Prairie Home Companion on a Yamaha PM5D on the side of the stage amazingly on 7506 headphones as the often last minute chaos happens.
Didn't look like a PM5D in the Robert Altman film. But it was in the wings ... with a rack! But it is a film .. and GK is involved.
#33
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #33
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Actually, it is a PM1D not a PM5D that Sam mixes the show on. I always switch those two consoles not being a live sound guy. I believe our old 56 channel Midas that used to be in the small control room might be what you have seen in the movie. That is our time warp room with the groovy vinyl padded door at the back of the hall. We only replaced that console about 9 months ago with a venue. It was getting quite unreliable.
Cameron

Last edited by roonsbane; 27th February 2012 at 01:18 PM.. Reason: Unclear sentence.
#34
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #34
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I made a few 2tk recordings a few years ago. The setup was a Yamaha M406 rack mixer to 1/4 tape. The base tracks were recorded "live" on the floor and I didn't worry about bleed or delay too much. I also multitracked it for backup. The results were good. I've also recorded many live shows straight to 2 tk using aux outs from the mixer and headphones for monitoring. Sometimes having a mix that isn't perfect at all times actually adds to the recording, especially a live recording.
#35
3rd March 2012
Old 3rd March 2012
  #35
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I've done a lot of live to 2, but mostly in studio situations with good monitoring and a mastering pass afterwards. I did some work for Jack Hardy and he believed that the musicians could mix themselves if they could hear properly and that we couldn't make a mix better by noodling too much. Producer approves the performance, the performance is the mix. I think he was right.
I like having the luxury of mixing in a proper space so for remote jobs I prefer multitrack and a good EDL. The performance is still key and the sound stays natural but you're not stuck with decisions made in the dark.
#36
8th June 2012
Old 8th June 2012
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noysie View Post
I do like the idea of capturing the image with only two mic's, but I have noticed in many photo's of classic 60's blue note and contemporary records studio sessions it was always a multi-mic session to 2TR.
Can anyone shed some light on some of these classic albums?
I do find I rarely use condensers when spot micing , and only use ribbons as I can get much more isolation from the ribbons blind spot.
having only 5 pre's in the stellavox ami48 (beautiful ones at that, and quiet) a typical jazz quintet recording of mine consists of mono drums OH (oktava 012 omni)
Ribbon on the double bass, ribbon on guitar cab, ribbon on trumpet , ribbon on alto saxophone. 3 of the ribbons are one's I have modded to micheal jolys specs from octava mods(long ribbons, short travel, lundahl transformers) the 4th ribbon is my own design I built myself , also with a lundahl transformer.
I find this set up with a few carefull twist's of the mic's, when balanced and panned can sound very natural, and extremely dynamic! Not sure if thats because if the dynamic range of the DSD recorder or just the , amazing stellavox pre's
How do you plug into the DSD recorder from the mixer? Are they balanced ins? I guess there are pre's on the recorder as well as the mixer?
#37
8th June 2012
Old 8th June 2012
  #37
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Well, it depends on the recorder, but typically through the balanced "line-ins". Pretty standard fare.
#38
8th June 2012
Old 8th June 2012
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Well, it depends on the recorder, but typically through the balanced "line-ins". Pretty standard fare.
I guess my real question is why would you need pre's on a mixer if you have pre's on a recorder? And if it's a 2 track recorder surely the inputs double as mic ins with pre's so you're using mic pre-amps twice? Does that make sense?
#39
9th June 2012
Old 9th June 2012
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickcrisp View Post
I guess my real question is why would you need pre's on a mixer if you have pre's on a recorder? And if it's a 2 track recorder surely the inputs double as mic ins with pre's so you're using mic pre-amps twice? Does that make sense?
Some 2 track recorders have microphone preamps as a matter of flexibility; if you are only recording with 2 mics, then you can just use your recorder for a simple setup.

However, if you are using more than 2 channels, but still plan on capturing only a stereo mix, you will need a mixer with additional microphone preamps.

You might also use a mixer's preamps (or simply outboard preamps) if they are of better quality than those on board your 2 track machine.

When using a mixer or outboard preamps, you would patch your preamp line outputs into your 2 track machines line inputs, which bypass the units' own microphone preamps.
#40
9th June 2012
Old 9th June 2012
  #40
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Its useful to have a recorder with proper gain and LF Attenuation
Then a simple hand held array can be used for flexible setups
However a good mixer is better for bigger more intimidating forces
Film mixers are great for this
Used ones are on the market as recordists are forced down the multi radio route
Hence once horribly expensive 6,8,10 ch mixers with all the tools and DC psu are available.
They are very compact and have comprehensive monitor and metering and impeccable mic pres.
Mixers from Cooper,Sound Devices,Audio Developments,Sonosax and SQN are worth exploring in detail.
#41
9th June 2012
Old 9th June 2012
  #41
Gear nut
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Some 2 track recorders have microphone preamps as a matter of flexibility; if you are only recording with 2 mics, then you can just use your recorder for a simple setup.

However, if you are using more than 2 channels, but still plan on capturing only a stereo mix, you will need a mixer with additional microphone preamps.

You might also use a mixer's preamps (or simply outboard preamps) if they are of better quality than those on board your 2 track machine.

When using a mixer or outboard preamps, you would patch your preamp line outputs into your 2 track machines line inputs, which bypass the units' own microphone preamps.
That's exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks a lot.
#42
9th June 2012
Old 9th June 2012
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Its useful to have a recorder with proper gain and LF Attenuation
Then a simple hand held array can be used for flexible setups
However a good mixer is better for bigger more intimidating forces
Film mixers are great for this
Used ones are on the market as recordists are forced down the multi radio route
Hence once horribly expensive 6,8,10 ch mixers with all the tools and DC psu are available.
They are very compact and have comprehensive monitor and metering and impeccable mic pres.
Mixers from Cooper,Sound Devices,Audio Developments,Sonosax and SQN are worth exploring in detail.
I'll look for something like that to use with my Nakamichi 550. I've wanted to start recording with more than just 3 mics. Thanks.
#43
9th June 2012
Old 9th June 2012
  #43
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So you guys mostly eq in post-production?
#44
9th June 2012
Old 9th June 2012
  #44
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I try not to eq at all.
#45
9th June 2012
Old 9th June 2012
  #45
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John Willett's Avatar
 
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Location: Oxfordshire, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
I try not to eq at all.
Same here.
#46
9th June 2012
Old 9th June 2012
  #46
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Cool. I don't either but I thought some of you did.
#47
10th June 2012
Old 10th June 2012
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickcrisp View Post
I'll look for something like that to use with my Nakamichi 550. I've wanted to start recording with more than just 3 mics. Thanks.
Nakamichi 550 - the best portable cassette on the market.

I bought mine in about 1978 and still have it; though I haven't used it in anger for over 20 years.
#48
10th June 2012
Old 10th June 2012
  #48
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I had the Nak 1000 ZXL
Seeing it go through auto azimuth and auto bias and line up was a pure joy
The level I could put on with that machine on the best evap metal TDKs was outstanding
However my SD 702 solid state recorder takes the biscuit in all things file based ,without the Glam Rock of the Nak....
0VU
#49
10th June 2012
Old 10th June 2012
  #49
0VU
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I never got as far as the 1000 ZXL but I do still have a 700 ZXL with its external Dolby processors, a CR7E, a Cassette Deck 1, an RX505E and a Dragon. The quality of recording achievable with a well calibrated Nak on good quality tape would give many 'semi-pro' reel to reel machines a run for their money and when it comes to playing back cassettes, there's nothing really to touch the Dragon.

Oh, and back on topic, I still probably do more recording direct to stereo (or surround) than to multitrack. Certainly all but a tiny proportion of sessions I do are to the finished master format, be it stereo or surround. As it's become easier to transport and set up multitrack recorders on location, live projects have become about a 50/50 share between stereo/surround and multitrack with post mix. Sometimes I'll run a multitrack as a backup to a stereo record but not always. It depends upon how complex the job is and how well I know the client, how many compromises there are in the monitoring situation/available soundcheck/balance time and whether or not there's any time for post playing about.

The reasons for this workflow are simple - the majority of my session work is handed off at the end of the sessions for editing either by the producer or a third party (so delivering a 'finished' mix is essential, though I may get it back for final mastering), and my live recordings are a mixture of projects either for broadcast with deadlines too tight to allow for post mixing, or simply live transmission, or are delivered as multitracks for post mixing or other work which may or may not involve me.
#50
11th June 2012
Old 11th June 2012
  #50
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 195

Awesome thread

Minimally mic'd, analog recording of acoustic music performances direct to 2-track reel-to-reel is an aspiration.
Still haven't been able to source the portable R2R I've been in search of, but a Studer A810 is on the horizon
I've narrowed micamps to DAV, Crookwood, and Gordon and mics to DPA, Schoeps, and Josephson -- the usual suspects
I still have the Nak 1000II purchased new in the mid-70's
Thanks, again, to all who have shared their experience and enthusiasm
#51
11th June 2012
Old 11th June 2012
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c1ferrari View Post
Awesome thread

Minimally mic'd, analog recording of acoustic music performances direct to 2-track reel-to-reel is an aspiration.
I used to do this back in the 1970s and early 1980s.

I moved to digital with the Sony PCM-F1 in 1983 and have never used analogue tape again as I found digital much better.

Yes, I still have my analogue tape machines, but just use them for replaying old stuff.

I still do minimalistic recording, but to digits.
#52
11th June 2012
Old 11th June 2012
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
I used to do this back in the 1970s and early 1980s.

I moved to digital with the Sony PCM-F1 in 1983 and have never used analogue tape again as I found digital much better.

Yes, I still have my analogue tape machines, but just use them for replaying old stuff.

I still do minimalistic recording, but to digits.
Good morning, John,

I've a soft spot for analog with two Studer A820's Maybe, it's just a phase I'm unfamiliar with the PCM-F1; however, I have examined DSD as a possible remote digital format.

I'm afraid I was just a bit premature in not mentioning Sennheiser mics -- a stereo pair or three MKH 800's would do nicely

Thank you for the reply.
#53
11th June 2012
Old 11th June 2012
  #53
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My main rig now is a Nagra VI (although very often used as a 2-track only). My small and portable stereo rig is a Nagra EMP (same mic. pres. as the Nagra VI) recorded into a Nagra SD. My pocket recorder is the SD.

For mics I have both Neumann and Sennheiser, though I did my last stereo recording with an ORTF pair of Gefell M300s with the EMP/SD rig.
#54
11th June 2012
Old 11th June 2012
  #54
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Posts: 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
My main rig now is a Nagra VI (although very often used as a 2-track only). My small and portable stereo rig is a Nagra EMP (same mic. pres. as the Nagra VI) recorded into a Nagra SD. My pocket recorder is the SD.

For mics I have both Neumann and Sennheiser, though I did my last stereo recording with an ORTF pair of Gefell M300s with the EMP/SD rig.
Nice, John
I'm still searching for a Nagra IV-S, NQS-LSP version with QGB adapter
The NVI is a fine unit
#55
15th June 2012
Old 15th June 2012
  #55
Gear nut
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 132

I'd love to hear some of your recordings.
Noysie
Thread Starter
#56
17th June 2012
Old 17th June 2012
  #56
Gear interested
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 25

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickcrisp View Post
How do you plug into the DSD recorder from the mixer? Are they balanced ins? I guess there are pre's on the recorder as well as the mixer?
Sorry Patrick for the slow response,
I think rolo answered your question anyway,
The Stellavox ami 48 mixer which I use , has stereo unbalanced AND transformer balanced outs with three different impedance settings.
it's a very strange unit with various tuchel and banana plug outputs! but once you make up the appropriate cables it's such a fantastic sounding fully featured mixer and very easy to use .
And I go straight to dsd 1 bit 5.6 , it's a very hard setup to beat.
Sometimes I use a neve portico tape emulator inbetween.
I could rave on about that mixer all day , best thing I ever bought!


Sent from my GT-I9100T using Gearslutz App
Noysie
Thread Starter
#57
17th June 2012
Old 17th June 2012
  #57
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 25

Thread Starter
Maybe some one could advise me of a nice reverb unit I could add to my portable two track setup?
Some of the jazz clubs I record in are so dry , just want to add a little something.
I want to stay away from software.


Sent from my GT-I9100T using Gearslutz App
#58
17th June 2012
Old 17th June 2012
  #58
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Joined: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noysie View Post
Sorry Patrick for the slow response,
I think rolo answered your question anyway,
The Stellavox ami 48 mixer which I use , has stereo unbalanced AND transformer balanced outs with three different impedance settings.
it's a very strange unit with various tuchel and banana plug outputs! but once you make up the appropriate cables it's such a fantastic sounding fully featured mixer and very easy to use .
And I go straight to dsd 1 bit 5.6 , it's a very hard setup to beat.
Sometimes I use a neve portico tape emulator inbetween.
I could rave on about that mixer all day , best thing I ever bought!


Sent from my GT-I9100T using Gearslutz App
Thanks Noysie. Sounds beautiful!
#59
24th June 2012
Old 24th June 2012
  #59
Gear nut
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 132

So if you record without a mixer, which portable recorder's pres are good with ribbon mics?
#60
24th June 2012
Old 24th June 2012
  #60
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Mats H's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 742

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
I try not to eq at all.
I do on the tracks that need it... The way I usually mix multimic concerts, I EQ some spot mics. Sometimes the main pair needs a LF boost those are cardioids. I roll off bottom from some spot mics that otherwise might be boomy or too "close".

Here's a recording direct to DSD for practice. I did a multitrack with 16 tracks to hard drive as well. Crest mixer, a mix of board preamps, RME FF UFX, Earthworks and six DIY preamps:

http://www.livingsound.se/mahler8dsd.mp3
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