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Let's all treat each other with a bit more kindness.
Old 14th February 2012
  #1
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Exclamation Let's all treat each other with a bit more kindness.

I'm troubled by the lack of respect for each other that has been exhibited on this whole site in general, but specifically by the fact that on this board we have lost and will continue to lose professional members whose contributions have been extremely generous, insightful, and invaluable to immature behaviour like this.

Look, it goes without saying that in our profession there are varying opinions on how best to accomplish our jobs. What works great for one person might be a complete taboo for another. And while free and limitless expression is one wonderful benefit of a forum like this, it also requires of us a discipline in kindness, empathy, and respect for our peers.

It was a terrible shame that this forum lost Tony Faulkner, arguably one of the greatest names in classical recording in the past half-century, to ignorant, rude and irresponsible belittling. While Tony is not the only pro on this forum, it would be ignorant to say that his loss has gone unnoticed. And while many may take the opinion that "if one cannot take the heat they should get out of the kitchen", let us remember that it is the diversity of opinion on a forum like this that encourages conversation, experimentation, and leads to new innovative ideas that allow our science to grow in new and exciting ways.

Next time someone says something you disagree with, or posts a clip you don't care for, try to write something that is honest but in a positive and constructive way. We are all working hard to advance our own craft, if this wasn't the case we all wouldn't be on this forum as often as we are. Let try to have respect and empathy for that.

Last edited by king2070lplaya; 14th February 2012 at 12:56 AM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 14th February 2012
  #2
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boojum's Avatar
Agreed! There has seemed to be a little less of the famed collegiality here of late. Folks have been cranky. Winter Blues?? I do not know, but KP, you are right. I will do my part by being more polite. That is all I can do.

Cheers
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1
Old 14th February 2012
  #3
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tourtelot's Avatar
I have been guilty of this as well, and saying the i was "provoked" is not an excuse.

I will do better as well.

D.
Quote
1
Old 14th February 2012
  #4
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RightOnRome's Avatar
Old 14th February 2012
  #5
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
I have been guilty of this as well, and saying the i was "provoked" is not an excuse.

I will do better as well.

D.
Me too man, I think we've all been guilty at one point or another. But it's good when we can admit it and work to improve it :-)
Old 14th February 2012
  #6
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Are we gigging or gagging?

Please consider PM'ing me directly with any issues that pertain to and arise in the "Remote Possibilities..." forum!

I would appreciate the opportunity to handle it my way instead of creating all this negative energy and needless banter.

Furthermore, I can and will deal with any other forum situations when applicable.

That being said, I would rather you address the potential issues with the individual (forum) moderators directly, since that is exactly what they are there for.

I believe the noise level in this forum is the lowest on the Net; let us all do our best to bring it down a few extra notches just because we can!

What say you?
Old 14th February 2012
  #7
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Really? Are we not grown ups? Man, this is a bar. People are here to learn, but also to yak away. There is some cool interaction going on, so of course there are bound to be some fights.

And this is the INTERNET! Short of some sites I have been to that are on complete lockdown (and really no fun at all), I have seen few places on the net as civil as this place.
Old 14th February 2012
  #8
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king2070lplaya's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Really? Are we not grown ups? Man, this is a bar.
Ironically, I was in a coffeeshop when I wrote this, so perhaps the slightly cooler atmosphere of that aesthetic was pervading my thoughts
Old 14th February 2012
  #9
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Ironically, I was in a coffeeshop when I wrote this, so perhaps the slightly cooler atmosphere of that aesthetic was pervading my thoughts
Come on, even hipsters can sometimes get in a tizzy.
Old 14th February 2012
  #10
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Richard Crowley's Avatar
 

Compared to some places I've seen here on the interweb, this place is downright sedate.
But good to have some better ideas about dealing with trolls.
Old 14th February 2012
  #11
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steveschizoid's Avatar
I have a little sign on my computer monitor that says:

"it is not neccessary to respond everytime an anonymous gearslut posts something erroneous, non-factual and/or downright stupid!"

It helps cut down on my contribution to the noise considerably.

HOWEVER, there are a few members who I feel should be encouraged (if not paid!) to respond to such posts - Slipperman, for example, never fails to brighten my day.
Old 14th February 2012
  #12
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GZsound's Avatar
 

I don't hardly ever post, but I have been lurking and reading most posts and I have been quite pleased with the level of discussion here.

This is one of more collegiate forums I frequent.

FWIW
Old 14th February 2012
  #13
Gear nut
 
Uncle Russ's Avatar
 

I run a popular forum of my own. It deals with a different subject but one even more "artistic" than audio engineering, if that is the right word. On that forum, there is even more room for difference of opinion, variance in approach, and polarization of philosophy. That forum, however, is far more helpful, specifically responsive, and gentlemanly than this one; the two are a universe apart. NOBODY is snide on my forum and we don't argue; if someone behaves in an improper manner I warn him. If he does it again I ban him. (That has only happened about three times in a dozen years.) That forum has earned the distinction of being the finest in its field and attracts the world's most outstanding practitioners.

On this forum I have read many intelligent comments suggesting the good intentions and taste of various people ... yet some of those very posts were downright disrespectful or even hostile. Why is that necessary? Does suggesting somebody else is a deaf idiot somehow make you a genius?

I see no need for such an attitude. All of us have the same goal. Our field is not exactly thriving. We should aspire to help one another, to teach those who can learn, to encourage each other to be as good as we are able. Yet many threads descend into nitpicky, non-responsive, "my ears and knowledge of the subject are better than yours" nonsense. More than one poster has characterized the overall attitude here as "amateurish" and in several cases he's not too far from the target.

Moreover many posts here seem to exist merely as an excuse to say something, even when that something isn't germane to the discussion. What is the purpose of such a post? To aggrandize yourself? If somebody asks opinions about an XYZ preamp in the $300 range, that is what he wants to learn about. He really doesn't care whether you happen to own a $4,000 ABC preamp and love it; such a post fails to deal with his question.

Most of my comments have been ignored here and I would expect this one to be no different. But trust me when I say I have seen far better behavior elsewhere. And believe me when I say there is enough talent and intelligence here to at least match that.
Old 14th February 2012
  #14
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
I seek to attain and accomplish a particular goal...

There was never a negative attitude back when I created and started this forum over ten years ago.

I seek to attain and accomplish a particular goal here!

Understand this; I took from this industry for decades; it was time for me to give back.

Many of my friends and associates thought I was nuts for giving out many of my secrets and techniques.
I believe that you still need the talent to take what was said and make it so.
IMHO, our industry needs more talented people!

If we aspire to great deeds, we all have a better chance of doing good deeds...

Unfortunately, that is not how a troll thinks I'm afraid.
The answer is, don't feed the troll!

We had a lot less traffic in the early days of this forum and the majority of the thread discussions were favorable evaluations of each and every topic at hand.

IMHO, as this forum grew, so did the attitude object.
Does it come from conflict or an ambivalence toward an idea or person?
I don't know, but I do feel as an audio discussion board we are in a better place than most.

We have beginners, hobbyists, journeymen and masters all hanging in the same group and for the most part enjoying each others company.

I for one am proud of what we have accomplished in the ten plus years.

For the most part, we do aspire to help one another and teach those who can learn.
I believe I've set the standard in giving encouragement and hope in this not so thriving industry.

Food for thought: We cannot control everyone's attitude or mindset, but can control our own!

What say you?
Old 14th February 2012
  #15
Gear nut
 
jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post

Food for thought: We cannot control everyone's attitude or mindset, but can control our own!

What say you?
AMEN!

As one of the hobbiests who is priviledged to hang around with you journeymen and pros, I have always appreciated this forum for its content and its civility. There are plenty of other forums where folks can vent and bicker; its great that we have this forum where we can live and learn. Gotta love the web - something for everyone.
Old 14th February 2012
  #16
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mljung's Avatar
As one who just experienced being the purpose of someone considering leaving this forum, I have to say it's not always easy to predict other users reactions. I do understand that we are all just humans that can be hurt for many good reasons, but not necessarily reasons that are always obvious to others.

Personally I strongly prefer people being kind to each other, but we are also here to debate and this can sometimes go wrong. Partly because we don't have each-others body language and voice to share, this leaves out important information in how we deal with the discussion sometimes. I try to compensate for this by generally being polite in my posts, but sometimes things get out of hand, even if the intention was good.

I remember when Tony Faulkner left and I agree that he, at least to some extent, was a victim of some deliberately rude posts. I miss him much here as he often had an unusual approach to what many others meant was facts, combined with his enormous experience.

I will personally do my best to be polite, but of course also be ready to debate [or even argue], in as good a balance, as I possibly can.


::
Mads
Old 14th February 2012
  #17
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Don S's Avatar
 

Yes, the Tony Faulkner incident is sad. But maybe we can help educate the newer members when someone of his experience and magnitude does indeed take the time to post. I have seen many postings saying, "Don't you know who you are talking to?" 20 or 30 posts down. Maybe this needs to be pointed out sooner as a professional courtesy. I have made many friends and professional connections from this site and hope for the newer members to learn from them.
Old 14th February 2012
  #18
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rumleymusic's Avatar
Quote:
But maybe we can help educate the newer members when someone of his experience and magnitude does indeed take the time to post. I have seen many postings saying, "Don't you know who you are talking to?" 20 or 30 posts down. Maybe this needs to be pointed out sooner as a professional courtesy. I have made many friends and professional connections from this site and hope for the newer members to learn from them.
A little difficult to do that without seeming either arrogant or dismissive of the other members. Everyone's input is valuable, as long as that input is based on real experience and/or keen observation. Even opinion should not be dismissed without good reason.

I think the best way to stay civil is to remove the anonymous aspect of online communities. I post who I am and what I do, and it stays my tongue (or fingers) when I feel an urge to say something demeaning.

Quote:
Partly because we don't have each-others body language and voice to share, this leaves out important information in how we deal with the discussion sometimes.
That is a major problem and I always try to look twice at what I am writing to make sure negatives are smoothed over with passive words, and facetious remarks are taken as they are. Smilies can go a long way, for example:

You are a jerk

compared to

You are a jerk
Old 14th February 2012
  #19
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
PMs are a great way to communicate your thoughts without having to broadcast it to the entire community...

I send them and receive them all the time.
It's a way of handling it without handling it;-)

If you folks see anything out of the ordinary, please let me know via a direct PM.
This is the best way I can handle this forum directly.
Old 14th February 2012
  #20
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Really? Are we not grown ups? Man, this is a bar. People are here to learn, but also to yak away. There is some cool interaction going on, so of course there are bound to be some fights.

And this is the INTERNET! Short of some sites I have been to that are on complete lockdown (and really no fun at all), I have seen few places on the net as civil as this place.
I think the all the OP was asking was a bit more respect for the humanity on this board. I do agree that we will all disagree with another from time to time but name calling and unacceptable behavior should be, well, unacceptable. A poster on this group once made a completely inappropriate comment about my wife who had never factored into the discussion. That was wrong.

D.
Old 14th February 2012
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Why did TF go ?
In PM s and telephone calls to him he has been very helpful, understanding and witty.
Forums can be infuriating but sometimes they are an absolute eye opener
Wry humour seems difficult to translate
Could we have a pair of eye brows to indicate intentions and possibly a breathalyser device,emoticons dont work.
Old 14th February 2012
  #22
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The Listener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Why did TF go ?
In PM s and telephone calls to him he has been very helpful, understanding and witty.
Forums can be infuriating but sometimes they are an absolute eye opener
Wry humour seems difficult to translate
Could we have a pair of eye brows to indicate intentions and possibly a breathalyser device,emoticons dont work.
I was thinking out loud and made a rather rude remark in a thread about Rode NT5 having sweeter high end than Schoeps MK4.

I was pissed at the time with so many confusing threads - people claiming dithering doesn't matter, all digital EQs are the same - doesn't matter, all clean mics can be EQd to sound the same, etc. Yet the ears and my (albeit limited) experience told me differently. And then there was that thread where a famous recordist was using DPA4060 as main pair and people claiming it sounds better than DPA4006 decca set up. And it plain didn't. To me it sounded thin and no comparison at all... and I would LOVE it if it was true.

I felt like a lot of people are endorsers of some gear or just plain talk BS or - and this was rude - some people just don't hear that well anymore... and all this BS culminated in me expressing that thought loudly, not in a direct offensive way, at least not intended that way - but reading it back - sure it was... and anyway - TonyF was just another pseudonym to me...

But he left later in the thread, long after I admitted that my ass was talking a bit, apologized for the lack of tact, but the thread kept going and people kept doubting that Rode NT5 are sweeter than Schoeps and he lost his patience. Too bad. I contributed to this, but it's not my sole responsibility for his departure and it was not really like people would be jumping on him.

That's his last post I guess... but he made his exit after that rather innocent post by another member. So I guess he just figured out he has better things to do and left. Who can blame him. But it was not like anyone was attacking him like hyenas or something at the moment he left. I was guilty of the rude remark and I certainly didn't insist or pursue any argument to cause his departure... you can read the whole damn thread and make up your mind if you will...

I like to question things up loud and want to get it into perspective. There is so much BS, weird opinions presented as fact, poor listening, payed endorsements, etc. , it was an unfortunate moment... to express that in that thread in that way...

Ah, so tiring...
Old 14th February 2012
  #23
Lives for gear
 
boojum's Avatar
This is starting to be another thread: The Tony Faulkner Incident. I understand completely why he left. I, too, stay away from people who upset me. But I have to accept being upset at times here because this group means a lot to me. It is my master class, as I have said so many times. It gives me so much. TF, OTOH, does not need this forum the same way I do. He was one of the "givers" and would lose little by staying away from ill-informed insults. He was "staying away from people who upset him." And here he can afford to. I am sorry to see him gone and would wish he and his critics would both reconsider.

/sermon off
Old 14th February 2012
  #24
Lives for gear
 
matyas's Avatar
 

I really hope Kjetil isn't gone for good. I always learned a lot from his posts. The Tony Faulkner incident was also sad. I also noticed that Michael Bishop doesn't post as much, although maybe (hopefully) it's because he's too busy making records.
Old 14th February 2012
  #25
Gear addict
 
johnsound's Avatar
 

I very nearly left the board around Christmas, simply because of one or two members who have a really bad habit of jumping into threads without having read them properly, making condescending remarks and then simply being rude when called out. When I challenged one of these people, I got private emails from other board members thanking me for doing it and adding that they were often too intimidated to ask questions or join discussions for fear of being targeted. I vented my frustration in the "things you've learned this year on Gearslutz" thread and, sure enough, up popped one of the main culprits with a snide remark.

I don't bother to respond to these guys too much these days, but this list would be a superb place to be if, instead of sniping and sneering, they actually read through the threads properly and decided if they had something to contribute rather than the knee-jerk reactions that always get trotted out. If you don't have something positive to contribute, then you should resist the urge to post, in my opinion.

That said, I enjoy much of the give and take on the list and I'm still learning, even at my advanced age.

In general, this is indeed one of the more civilised areas in which to reside, so thanks to Steve for starting it up and maintaining its rep through thick and thin.

Regards,

John Leonard

http://www.johnleonard.co.uk
Old 14th February 2012
  #26
Lives for gear
 

Please pardon my newbie perspective, but it seems to me that the posts here aren't the most extreme, but they aren't the kindest either compared to other sites.

Generally, people not just here, but everywhere, seem to be losing the willingness/ability to disagree on a respectful and principled basis with other people. By this, I am specifically thinking of Covey's book, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, which discusses the ability to discuss the merits of an issue without jumping into name calling just because we don't happen to agree with their perspective. It's been a long since since I read his books, and I could be mixed up, but I believe it was Stephen Covey who made this point.

It's one thing to say, my personal experience with XZY microphone was ____________ versus saying ZXY microphone is junk and anybody who uses ZXY microphone is nutty.

We can make anything unpleasant by beating each other up, or we can choose to try to help each other.
Old 15th February 2012
  #27
Banned
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Really? Are we not grown ups? Man, this is a bar. People are here to learn, but also to yak away. There is some cool interaction going on, so of course there are bound to be some fights.

And this is the INTERNET! Short of some sites I have been to that are on complete lockdown (and really no fun at all), I have seen few places on the net as civil as this place.
Exactly, this place is pretty democratic. And I'm sorry if I don't know who the hell Tony Faulkner is.
Old 15th February 2012
  #28
Gear addict
 
johnsound's Avatar
 

I guess his work isn't in your field: If you're interested, you could look him up. He has some insightful and useful things to say about location recording for classical music and recording in general.

Regards,
Old 15th February 2012
  #29
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
I'm troubled by the lack of respect for each other that has been exhibited on this whole site in general, but specifically by the fact that on this board we have lost and will continue to lose professional members whose contributions have been extremely generous, insightful, and invaluable to immature behaviour like this.

Look, it goes without saying that in our profession there are varying opinions on how best to accomplish our jobs. What works great for one person might be a complete taboo for another. And while free and limitless expression is one wonderful benefit of a forum like this, it also requires of us a discipline in kindness, empathy, and respect for our peers.

It was a terrible shame that this forum lost Tony Faulkner, arguably one of the greatest names in classical recording in the past half-century, to ignorant, rude and irresponsible belittling. While Tony is not the only pro on this forum, it would be ignorant to say that his loss has gone unnoticed. And while many may take the opinion that "if one cannot take the heat they should get out of the kitchen", let us remember that it is the diversity of opinion on a forum like this that encourages conversation, experimentation, and leads to new innovative ideas that allow our science to grow in new and exciting ways.

Next time someone says something you disagree with, or posts a clip you don't care for, try to write something that is honest but in a positive and constructive way. We are all working hard to advance our own craft, if this wasn't the case we all wouldn't be on this forum as often as we are. Let try to have respect and empathy for that.

The real problem on this site is that some of the moderators are biased and penalize unfairly. I won't name names, but I think I speak for more than few when I say certain members can pretty much get away with insulting anyone on here. Oh sh*t...here comes another infraction to my inbox! But seriously, I blame certain moderators.
Old 15th February 2012
  #30
Lives for gear
 
DaveUK's Avatar
Real names ? Or at least real names in profiles would allow people to google before wading in ?....oops better check my profile ,fairly sure it reveals i'm nobody :-)
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