Harpsichord in a big church

I-Quality · 8th May 2006, 10:16 PM

I'm about to record a solo Harpsichord in a church that is quite big...hmm i don't know the exact dimension but it has to be something like 15m x 30m and quite high as well
anyway if you think this is important I could go and mesure a little closer

I was there and the thing is the reverb decay is quite long, so when in faster passagis it can become quite mixed, but it is a celan reverb, meaning not very warm

and because it is quite a big place the lid would have not to be removed but like 60° or I don't know how much it is so that the public gets the sound better

so my question is essentially how do I mic that? I want it stereo of course ;)
and is there an optimal position for the instrument to be? I know there should but , we won't have all day to experiment :( the shape inside is standard, with a half circle and a rectangle

if you could give me a few pointers as to what I should try, it will make me gain a lot of time

also at one point there will be a singer accompanying for one piece that will stand just in front of the harpsichord (close to where the curve on the instrument is), so this is also to be considered

I have almost no experience in this domain so your help is welcome and very appreciated!

p.s. I have no omnis, but if you think this yould require I might rent some

tINY · 8th May 2006, 11:58 PM

If you have faith in the group who is setting up the concert, you should do an ORTF stereo recording about 2-3m high in the center about the 4th row.

If you have extra channels, you might put a spaced pair of mics on the Harpsicord (cardioids are fine) about a foot away and 3 feet apart. Add a spot mic for the singer and a couple more for ambience. Then you can mix it later.

-tINY

T.RayBullard · 9th May 2006, 12:12 AM

you cannot use traditional thinking with harpsichord recordings, it is one of the most difficult instruments to record. If it isnt done well, the insrtument will sound "tinkly" and not pleasing at all. FWIW, I most always use spaced omnis, never coincident/near coincident...

Proceed with caution!

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Mar0...orecording.asp

**Jules** · 9th May 2006, 01:56 AM

I wonder if a harpsichord was designed to be played in smaller places!

http://www.anoca.org/harpsichords/in...he_harpsichord

I-Quality · 9th May 2006, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jules

I wonder if a harpsichord was designed to be played in smaller places!

well actually it was, harpsichord was for musica da camera (chamber music in the living room) and opposes organ which was for musica di chiesa (religious music in churches), but anyway it's clear that the sound in churches is much nicer

tINY so you would suggest putting the mics really far away? hmm as there is allready a lot of ambiance won't I lose some clarity?

[quote=tINY]If you have extra channels, you might put a spaced pair of mics on the Harpsicord (cardioids are fine) about a foot away and 3 feet apart. [/QUOTE=tINY]

if the lid isn't completely open I fail to see how I could do this...

T.RayBullard, you would suggest something like the link you provided, from distance and spacing?

ok , could you listen to this small sample I once recorded and tell me what you think about it?

http://www.darksite.ch/donutsbadtrip/haspi.mp3

tINY · 9th May 2006, 09:42 AM

The idea with the ORTF pair is to put them, essentially, in the best seat in the house.

With the spaced pair, a partially open lid will be fine, you just have to put the mics a bit lower . Put the mics a foot from the open side and about 3 (or more) feet apart. Yes, you will have more plectrum in the left side.

-tINY

**Remoteness** · 9th May 2006, 03:29 PM

If the harpsicord is place within the orchestra I would place a spot mic on the instrument and blend it in with your main mic setup.

If the Harpsicord is in front of the orchestra (and depending on the music performed) you could use your normal mic setup.

David Spearritt · 9th May 2006, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

I most always use spaced omnis, never coincident/near coincident...

I do the opposite of this and use Blumlein if possible on solo harpsichord. There is so much mid-high frequency interference from the harpsichord with any spaced techniques, if you want to relish comb filtering, this is how to hear it.

We have had superb results with Blumlein, because the image is rock solid and there is no comb filtering.

Summarising, my experience is that spaced techniques are great for large spread out sources, orchestra, choir, where as, small ensembles and solo instruments are much better served by coincident techniques.

Try recording solo oboe or clarinet with spaced omnis, you will see where they got the original space invaders sounds from.

T.RayBullard · 9th May 2006, 10:57 PM

Interesting! Spaced omnis have worked beautifully for me, never had any issues*yet* thank God!. I also use spaced omnis with Pipe Organ, and coincident/near coincident with Orchestra, generally. Takes a lot more time to situate spaced pairs, but it works for me. I would never use spaced omnis on a small instrument like clarinet,violin etc..but piano, organ, harpsichord, , the more "spread out" instruments do well with it, at least in the places I record..typically Huge Cathedrals and the like.

This comes without any scientific explanation , just from what my ears like. Admittedly, my ears and approach seem to buck traditional wisdom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

I do the opposite of this and use Blumlein if possible on solo harpsichord. There is so much mid-high frequency interference from the harpsichord with any spaced techniques, if you want to relish comb filtering, this is how to hear it.

We have had superb results with Blumlein, because the image is rock solid and there is no comb filtering.

Summarising, my experience is that spaced techniques are great for large spread out sources, orchestra, choir, where as, small ensembles and solo instruments are much better served by coincident techniques.

Try recording solo oboe or clarinet with spaced omnis, you will see where they got the original space invaders sounds from.

joelpatterson · 10th May 2006, 01:01 AM

As a general rule... made to be broken... the closer you are to a sound source, the more clarity you can get out of it. My philosophy... made to be argued with... is that a recording that has real, true-to-life clarity is just going to be inherently more mesmerizing to listen to. And that when the mics are placed well back from the sound source, you kind of get an old record kind of thing--clear and lifelike and essentially kind of vaporous...

Even if your mics are nearly under the lid of the harpsichord, you still get lots of the room, and the more better the room sounds, the better the whole take-- you can't avoid picking up the room, it's not like you could shut it out if you tried.

In any situation, I like to multi-track several pairs of mics and a few spot mics, and sort it all out later. When it comes to crafting a mix of a concert... you really are creating something that didn't exist at the time. Your CD of the show will sound a billion times better than what someone heard in the fourth row.

I-Quality · 10th May 2006, 08:40 AM

thanks for your input, I see that there are a lot of aproaches as usual, I'll try them and ultimately I'll choose what sounds best to me ;o)

I still have a question, but regarding microphones, I've looked around abit for renting some omnis , and in my area there is almost no renting, so the only brands are akg, sennheiser and shure...would you recommend one mic?

hmm maybe i should try and ask the studio guys in my area if they could rent me their shoeps or neumann =P

joelpatterson · 10th May 2006, 01:56 PM

I'd go for the most expensive omni's you could beg, borrow or steal. Of course, I'm a recent convert to Earthworks... which I feel like finally at long last give me a sound that's not all "microphonic," if you know what I mean.

T.RayBullard · 10th May 2006, 04:23 PM

Sennheiser MKH 800 are stunning.

2db · 10th May 2006, 04:39 PM

Teddy,

why not have the musician perform on a casio keyboard and use the harpsichord patch plugged in direct?!?! Hahaaaa

All kidding aside, I would use a pair of UMT70S, one in omni over the right shoulder of the musician and the other mic on card about 18" above the strings at mid point facing the plectrum.

~jim

T.RayBullard · 10th May 2006, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2db

Teddy,

why not have the musician perform on a casio keyboard and use the harpsichord patch plugged in direct?!?! Hahaaaa

All kidding aside, I would use a pair of UMT70S, one in omni over the right shoulder of the musician and the other mic on card about 18" above the strings at mid point facing the plectrum.

~jim

Once i did this pipe-organ in holland and it has no line-out ......

fifthcircle · 10th May 2006, 05:34 PM

For solo keyboard instruments, a spaced pair can work very well as the instrument isn't going to move. I often do piano recordings with a spaced omni pair.

Harpsichord is a b!tch to make sound good. As an instrument, it can get very bright and harsh. Many harpsichords don't have a particularly good sustain to the sound which doesn't help things either. If your room has a long reverb, then things will get muddy fast. In this case, I'll usually mic closer to the instrument, but with a non-directional pair. You can keep the detail of a closer pair, yet still pick up the ambience of the room. Some harpsichords project very well and others don't... You'll just have to listen to the instrument and make a judgement call.

David Spearitt's suggestion of blumlein is great. I'd probably reach for my Royer SF-24 first if I was doing the gig and my AKG 426 a close second. If I were to go omni, I'd probably have them a few feet out and spaced about 3 feet apart or so (no wider, you'll get a hole in the center of the image).

If you use an ORTF pair, just make sure your pair of mics is not too bright. Schoeps, Sennheiser MKH, etc... would be great first choices as they don't have a rising top end at all.

--Ben

Yannick · 10th May 2006, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

Sennheiser MKH 800 are stunning.

a little off topic : how do MKH800 and MKH80 compare in your experience ? I only know/use MKH20/30/40/80s. Are they really different (I still don't understand why they cost the same)

larsfarm · 10th May 2006, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

Sennheiser MKH 800 are stunning.

Initially...
What pickup pattern would you set them in?
How would you place the mics?

best regards
Lars

larsfarm · 10th May 2006, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannick

how do MKH800 and MKH80 compare in your experience ?

Good question! I've been intrigued by the MKH80/MKH800 for quite some time. The 800 is supposed to have an extra octave into the inaudible range, but is there a difference in the audible range?

best regards
Lars

T.RayBullard · 10th May 2006, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larsfarm

Initially...
What pickup pattern would you set them in?
How would you place the mics?

best regards
Lars

I used them once on a piano recital..spaced about 1/2 meter..omni

once on a string quartet blumlein, and once on a violin and bouzouki, spaced.omni

**Remoteness** · 10th May 2006, 09:38 PM

As you may already know, the MKH80 has been discontinued. The MKH800 is the replacement and has a retail value of $ 3100.00 USD. The MKH80 if I'm not mistaken was a lot less expensive then the MKH800.

I never had the opportunity to A/B them but, Duke Markos borrowed a pair of MKH800s to use on an acoustic piano during a live radio broadcast for WBGO-FM. It sounded pretty amazing on piano.

I really "want" a pair of these puppies -- I must be more frugal so I'm going to wait until I "need" them before I buy.

Yannick · 11th May 2006, 08:41 AM

The MKH80 is still on their site, maybe it is no longer in production, but there is some stock ?

MKH80 and MKH800 were always the same price here in Belgium, around 2850 euro. You can find MKH800 in Germany for 2777-2990 incl VAT.

T.RayBullard · 11th May 2006, 08:58 AM

Good thing I dont Pay VAT.

I really want a pair too.

**Remoteness** · 11th May 2006, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannick

The MKH80 is still on their site, maybe it is no longer in production, but there is some stock ?

MKH80 and MKH800 were always the same price here in Belgium, around 2850 euro. You can find MKH800 in Germany for 2777-2990 incl VAT.

The MKH80 is not on the SennheiserUSA.com website or listed in the USA dealer price guide.

Maybe it's still available outside of the States while supplies last.

Wow, it's about $500.00 USD above the USA price in euro.
Are you talking 2777-2990 EUR or DEM? And what's the VAT fee nowadays?
If you're talking DEM, that's pretty cheap for that mic.

T.RayBullard · 11th May 2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remoteness

The MKH80 is not on the SennheiserUSA.com website or listed in the USA dealer price guide.

Maybe it's still available outside of the States while supplies last.

Wow, it's about $500.00 USD above the USA price in euro.
Are you talking 2777-2990 EUR or DEM? And what's the VAT fee nowadays?
If you're talking DEM, that's pretty cheap for that mic.

Current VAT is 16 percent here in Germany. those are EUR prices, I think.

If you need to save some dough, and dont want to pay VAT...shoot me a pm. I

zilver · 11th May 2006, 07:32 PM

Why doesn't anyone respond to the mp3 that I-quality posted ?
I think that would be most helpful for him.
He knows how he recorded it, so if you say "this sounds to direct" or something like that he knows what to change....

I'm no expert but interested in what is good/bad in this example.
For instance i think it sounds good but there's much mechanical noise. Is that normal or is it recorded too close/from a wrong place ?

Hans

Yannick · 11th May 2006, 07:51 PM

I found the example to be too much L-R stereo (treble left - basses right), a bit on the bright side, but most importantly the instrument doesn't seem to have 'body'.

While being quite bright a harpsichord does have a big physical presence, you shouldn't loose that. Too much mechanical noise I don't know, it can be the instrument, or maybe the mics were too close, but I'm not against that.

Was that mic on axis or at the tail, quite high ?

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8th May 2006, 10:16 PM	#1
I-Quality Gear Head Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Helvetia Posts: 52	Harpsichord in a big church I'm about to record a solo Harpsichord in a church that is quite big...hmm i don't know the exact dimension but it has to be something like 15m x 30m and quite high as well anyway if you think this is important I could go and mesure a little closer I was there and the thing is the reverb decay is quite long, so when in faster passagis it can become quite mixed, but it is a celan reverb, meaning not very warm and because it is quite a big place the lid would have not to be removed but like 60° or I don't know how much it is so that the public gets the sound better so my question is essentially how do I mic that? I want it stereo of course ;) and is there an optimal position for the instrument to be? I know there should but , we won't have all day to experiment :( the shape inside is standard, with a half circle and a rectangle if you could give me a few pointers as to what I should try, it will make me gain a lot of time also at one point there will be a singer accompanying for one piece that will stand just in front of the harpsichord (close to where the curve on the instrument is), so this is also to be considered I have almost no experience in this domain so your help is welcome and very appreciated! p.s. I have no omnis, but if you think this yould require I might rent some

9th May 2006, 12:12 AM	#3
T.RayBullard Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Columbus County, North Carolina Posts: 2,431	you cannot use traditional thinking with harpsichord recordings, it is one of the most difficult instruments to record. If it isnt done well, the insrtument will sound "tinkly" and not pleasing at all. FWIW, I most always use spaced omnis, never coincident/near coincident... Proceed with caution! http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Mar0...orecording.asp __________________ I think it is wrong to make everything equidistant from the listener with too many mics. The pasting-on effects end up like bad Photoshop work on graphics & photos - too unbelievable.-Tony Faulkner http://www.last.fm/user/TeddyBullard/

9th May 2006, 01:56 AM	#4
Jules Gearslutz.com admin Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 11,701	I wonder if a harpsichord was designed to be played in smaller places! http://www.anoca.org/harpsichords/in...he_harpsichord __________________ Jules "your requirements are arbitrarily mandating a non-native solution" - Peeder

9th May 2006, 03:29 PM	#7
Remoteness Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 4,880	If the harpsicord is place within the orchestra I would place a spot mic on the instrument and blend it in with your main mic setup. If the Harpsicord is in front of the orchestra (and depending on the music performed) you could use your normal mic setup. __________________ Steve Remote AuraSonicLtd.com the home of ASL Mobile & Location Production Remoteness on the Linkedin Network Remoteness on Myspace

8th May 2006, 11:58 PM	#2
tINY Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 6,017	If you have faith in the group who is setting up the concert, you should do an ORTF stereo recording about 2-3m high in the center about the 4th row. If you have extra channels, you might put a spaced pair of mics on the Harpsicord (cardioids are fine) about a foot away and 3 feet apart. Add a spot mic for the singer and a couple more for ambience. Then you can mix it later. -tINY

9th May 2006, 09:42 AM	#6
tINY Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 6,017	The idea with the ORTF pair is to put them, essentially, in the best seat in the house. With the spaced pair, a partially open lid will be fine, you just have to put the mics a bit lower . Put the mics a foot from the open side and about 3 (or more) feet apart. Yes, you will have more plectrum in the left side. -tINY

10th May 2006, 01:01 AM	#10
joelpatterson Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Location: Albany, New York Posts: 3,421	As a general rule... made to be broken... the closer you are to a sound source, the more clarity you can get out of it. My philosophy... made to be argued with... is that a recording that has real, true-to-life clarity is just going to be inherently more mesmerizing to listen to. And that when the mics are placed well back from the sound source, you kind of get an old record kind of thing--clear and lifelike and essentially kind of vaporous... Even if your mics are nearly under the lid of the harpsichord, you still get lots of the room, and the more better the room sounds, the better the whole take-- you can't avoid picking up the room, it's not like you could shut it out if you tried. In any situation, I like to multi-track several pairs of mics and a few spot mics, and sort it all out later. When it comes to crafting a mix of a concert... you really are creating something that didn't exist at the time. Your CD of the show will sound a billion times better than what someone heard in the fourth row. __________________ Mountaintop Studios ~the peak of perfection~ Petersburgh NY 12138 mountaintop@taconic.net

10th May 2006, 08:40 AM	#11
I-Quality Gear Head Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Helvetia Posts: 52	thanks for your input, I see that there are a lot of aproaches as usual, I'll try them and ultimately I'll choose what sounds best to me ;o) I still have a question, but regarding microphones, I've looked around abit for renting some omnis , and in my area there is almost no renting, so the only brands are akg, sennheiser and shure...would you recommend one mic? hmm maybe i should try and ask the studio guys in my area if they could rent me their shoeps or neumann =P

10th May 2006, 01:56 PM	#12
joelpatterson Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Location: Albany, New York Posts: 3,421	I'd go for the most expensive omni's you could beg, borrow or steal. Of course, I'm a recent convert to Earthworks... which I feel like finally at long last give me a sound that's not all "microphonic," if you know what I mean. __________________ Mountaintop Studios ~the peak of perfection~ Petersburgh NY 12138 mountaintop@taconic.net

10th May 2006, 04:23 PM	#13
T.RayBullard Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Columbus County, North Carolina Posts: 2,431	Sennheiser MKH 800 are stunning. __________________ I think it is wrong to make everything equidistant from the listener with too many mics. The pasting-on effects end up like bad Photoshop work on graphics & photos - too unbelievable.-Tony Faulkner http://www.last.fm/user/TeddyBullard/

10th May 2006, 04:39 PM	#14
2db Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Central Pa Posts: 110	Teddy, why not have the musician perform on a casio keyboard and use the harpsichord patch plugged in direct?!?! Hahaaaa All kidding aside, I would use a pair of UMT70S, one in omni over the right shoulder of the musician and the other mic on card about 18" above the strings at mid point facing the plectrum. ~jim __________________ Jim Easton

10th May 2006, 05:34 PM	#16
fifthcircle Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,299	For solo keyboard instruments, a spaced pair can work very well as the instrument isn't going to move. I often do piano recordings with a spaced omni pair. Harpsichord is a b!tch to make sound good. As an instrument, it can get very bright and harsh. Many harpsichords don't have a particularly good sustain to the sound which doesn't help things either. If your room has a long reverb, then things will get muddy fast. In this case, I'll usually mic closer to the instrument, but with a non-directional pair. You can keep the detail of a closer pair, yet still pick up the ambience of the room. Some harpsichords project very well and others don't... You'll just have to listen to the instrument and make a judgement call. David Spearitt's suggestion of blumlein is great. I'd probably reach for my Royer SF-24 first if I was doing the gig and my AKG 426 a close second. If I were to go omni, I'd probably have them a few feet out and spaced about 3 feet apart or so (no wider, you'll get a hole in the center of the image). If you use an ORTF pair, just make sure your pair of mics is not too bright. Schoeps, Sennheiser MKH, etc... would be great first choices as they don't have a rising top end at all. --Ben __________________ Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Long Beach, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com

10th May 2006, 09:38 PM	#21
Remoteness Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 4,880	As you may already know, the MKH80 has been discontinued. The MKH800 is the replacement and has a retail value of $ 3100.00 USD. The MKH80 if I'm not mistaken was a lot less expensive then the MKH800. I never had the opportunity to A/B them but, Duke Markos borrowed a pair of MKH800s to use on an acoustic piano during a live radio broadcast for WBGO-FM. It sounded pretty amazing on piano. I really "want" a pair of these puppies -- I must be more frugal so I'm going to wait until I "need" them before I buy. __________________ Steve Remote AuraSonicLtd.com the home of ASL Mobile & Location Production Remoteness on the Linkedin Network Remoteness on Myspace

11th May 2006, 08:41 AM	#22
Yannick Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Brussels Posts: 418	The MKH80 is still on their site, maybe it is no longer in production, but there is some stock ? MKH80 and MKH800 were always the same price here in Belgium, around 2850 euro. You can find MKH800 in Germany for 2777-2990 incl VAT. __________________ Yannick Willox www.acousticrecordingservice.be (mobile recording)

11th May 2006, 08:58 AM	#23
T.RayBullard Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Columbus County, North Carolina Posts: 2,431	Good thing I dont Pay VAT. I really want a pair too. __________________ I think it is wrong to make everything equidistant from the listener with too many mics. The pasting-on effects end up like bad Photoshop work on graphics & photos - too unbelievable.-Tony Faulkner http://www.last.fm/user/TeddyBullard/

11th May 2006, 07:32 PM	#26
zilver Gear maniac Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Posts: 280	Why doesn't anyone respond to the mp3 that I-quality posted ? I think that would be most helpful for him. He knows how he recorded it, so if you say "this sounds to direct" or something like that he knows what to change.... I'm no expert but interested in what is good/bad in this example. For instance i think it sounds good but there's much mechanical noise. Is that normal or is it recorded too close/from a wrong place ? Hans

11th May 2006, 07:51 PM	#27
Yannick Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Brussels Posts: 418	I found the example to be too much L-R stereo (treble left - basses right), a bit on the bright side, but most importantly the instrument doesn't seem to have 'body'. While being quite bright a harpsichord does have a big physical presence, you shouldn't loose that. Too much mechanical noise I don't know, it can be the instrument, or maybe the mics were too close, but I'm not against that. Was that mic on axis or at the tail, quite high ? __________________ Yannick Willox www.acousticrecordingservice.be (mobile recording)