Indoor boom mic

[ppen]

Hello. I do a lot of location sound for cable TV shows. I use a rode ntg3, and notice it loses it's "in your face" quality indoors. Sounds really great outside. Don't know why. Can anyone recommend a good boom for indoors? Thanks,

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[John Willett]

Originally Posted by ppen

Hello. I do a lot of location sound for cable TV shows. I use a rode ntg3, and notice it loses it's "in your face" quality indoors. Sounds really great outside. Don't know why. Can anyone recommend a good boom for indoors? Thanks,

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Indoors a super-cardioid may be better than a gun.

A Sennheiser MKH 8050 may be a good idea, or a Gefell M310 or M270, for example. Schoeps, Neumann and DPA also do good super-cardioid mics.


The new Sennheiser MKH 8060 gun mic. is supposed to be much better indoors than earlier mics. if you must absolutely have to have a gun mic.


Oh - and the reason that guns tend not to be good indoors is the off-axis response and comb-filter effect of the interference tube (thouh much improved, I am told, with the 8060).

I hope this helps.

[ppen]

That does help, thanks. I suppose the downside of a super cardioid is the reach. Maybe you have to ride the edge of the camera frame a little tighter. The wider pattern would definitely be better for covering a conversation though. Frankly, the quality of the rode is just fine for TV, but having another option might make my life a little easier.

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[Rolo 46]

MKH 50 my choice
CMIT 5U in horrible 4 wallers
CCM41 in low ceilings

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by ppen

That does help, thanks. I suppose the downside of a super cardioid is the reach.

Not really - imagine an omni at 1-metre.

The same sound would be picked up by a cardioid at 1.7 metres, a super-cardioid at 1.9 metres, a hyper-cardioid at 2-metres and a short gun at 2.2 metres.

So, it's not very much different.

A gun mic. has the same directivity as a super-cardioid at low frequencies anyway, it's only at higher frequencies that the interference tube comes into effect.

[tourtelot]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

MKH 50 my choice
CMIT 5U in horrible 4 wallers
CCM41 in low ceilings

What he says! The Sennheiser MKH50 is a wonderful indoor dialog mic. As you probably know, frames tend to be tighter and closer on top on interior setups than exterior setups so the pattern on a super or hyper works well indoors. If I have a really tight interior frame, I may switch out to a cardioid pattern because I think it sounds more like the picture looks. My $.02.

And it's my unsolicited advice, and not in a mean way, that if you plan to do sound for a career that you start to learn mic patterns and why they do, and don't do, what they do. It's vital knowledge.

D.

[aracu]

A super or hyper cardioid mic capsule can be placed a few extra inches closer without getting in frame, compared to a shotgun mic capsule w/ interference tube.

[Rolo 46]

MKH 406,416,816 used the same capsule but in varying tube geometry.

All you needed was a 406 and spare tubes for 416 and 816.

It was time consuming though.

[tourtelot]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

It was time consuming though.

They sold a lot more mics that way

D.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

MKH 406,416,816 used the same capsule but in varying tube geometry.

All you needed was a 406 and spare tubes for 416 and 816.

It was time consuming though.

My understanding was that the capsules were *not* the same - they did have different part numbers I think.

If I am incorrect in this, then the circuit was different.

I know you could not swap and change as you say and get the correct result.

Though you may have got a workable result .........

John

[Winter]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

MKH 406,416,816 used the same capsule but in varying tube geometry.

Interesting! I did'nt know this, but...if the 406 and 416 share the same capsule...why sennheiser do not have spare capsule for the 406?
Take a look: Who can repair a Sennheiser MKH 406 capsule?

[Rolo 46]

I think the eq was slightly different but close enough for jazz in extremis.

[Shubi]

I've had some good results in some pretty echoey rooms with an Audix SCX1-Hyper.
It's a pretty short mic and I had to get a new mount for it, but I think it sounds pretty good. Maybe not as warm as an MKH50, and it requires a fair amount of gain to get good levels, but at less than half the price, I'm happy with it.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Winter

Interesting! I did'nt know this, but...if the 406 and 416 share the same capsule...why sennheiser do not have spare capsule for the 406?
Take a look: Who can repair a Sennheiser MKH 406 capsule?

Yes, the 406 capsule is quite different from the one for the 416.

The 406 capsule had a blast plate over the front to protect it from plosives.

As far as I know, there are no more 406 capsules left. D_Fu had the last two last rear.

[Petrus]

Sanken CS-3e short shotgun is the only shotgun I know of which works perfectly well indoors also. The secret is the 3 capsule design, which does not rely on the interference tube alone for side rejection, but uses a clever matrix to kill the side lobes. This gives it a fairly narrow acceptance angle with balanced frequency plots, the main reason hypers are preferred indoors. With CS-3e just one mic is needed for everything.

SANKEN MICROPHONE CO .,LTD. | Product [ CS-3e ]

Cheap but fine hypercardioid is the Oktava MK012 with hyper cap. Used a lot no-budget indie films.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by Petrus

Sanken CS-3e short shotgun is the only shotgun I know of which works perfectly well indoors also.

Hi,
Do you think the Sanken CS-3e can ALWAYS substitute an hyper?
I'm thinking to purchase one, but when indoor, i'm afraid to not obtain the same wonderful sound you could have from the golden standard hypers (Sennheiser and Schoeps).

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by Winter

Hi,
Do you think the Sanken CS-3e can ALWAYS substitute an hyper?
I'm thinking to purchase one, but when indoor, i'm afraid to not obtain the same wonderful sound you could have from the golden standard hypers (Sennheiser and Schoeps).

Well, it a great short shotgun, which also works well indoors. If you get only one mic for video/film, CS-3e can be considered it. In some circumstances there are better choices like good hypers for indoors and even longer shotguns for certain outdoor shots, but none of them can hardly be used for anything than one special purpose. That was the long answer. Short answer: no, not always. For one thing hypers are shorter...

[tourtelot]

The Sanken CS3e works remarkably well on interiors. I have been known to pull it out if the shot is a bit wider than what I like for my normal interior dialog mic, the Sennheiser MKH50.

Sanken designed this mic with a number of capsules (IIRC) and so it doesn't behave like a typical interference tube mic (like a Sennheiser 416). It is a bit longer than typical interior mics which makes it rather ungainly in some situations. But it's also really nice in that it attenuates the off-axis sound throughout the entire frequency spectrum unlike interference tubes which become ever more omni-directional the lower the frequency goes. This makes the Sanken extra good at getting rid of exterior sound problems like generators that are parked too close, etc.

Probably won't sound too good in a small tile bathroom but it might be a mic that is pretty close to "universal" today.

Just my $.02 as always

D.

[Winter]

@Petrus: thanks a lot for answering! I guess i will still bet on 2 mics in my bag...
@Tourtelot: at how many inches (well, more or less ) are you able to work with the MKH-50 before needing to switch to the Sanken? Did you use the MKH-50 outdoor too?

[tourtelot]

I start to lose the love for the MKH50 at about a foot and a half overhead, more or less. Of course, as always, this is dependent on signal to noise. Louder voices, less background means a farther working distance.

D.

[Rolo 46]

I went through a phase thinking it better to have the capsule near the action rather than an Interference tube.
We were on a beach in Corfu, doing a long period love scene in the middle of tourist season
All very whispered, the card was ng, the shotgun ok, the rifle mic perfect.
One needs all the toys possible

[Winter]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

One needs all the toys possible

Absolutely true.

[tourtelot]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

I went through a phase thinking it better to have the capsule near the action rather than an Interference tube.
We were on a beach in Corfu, doing a long period love scene in the middle of tourist season
All very whispered, the card was ng, the shotgun ok, the rifle mic perfect.
One needs all the toys possible

Sennheiser 816 on the beach. The ONLY way!

D.

[Earcatcher]

Originally Posted by tourtelot

Sennheiser 816 on the beach. The ONLY way!

D.

Obviously you did not try the Schoeps SuperCMIT yet. Shotgun microphone SuperCMIT - Overview - Schoeps Digital

Schoeps has some very interesting sound samples on the website: Shotgun microphone SuperCMIT - Audio samples - Schoeps Digital

[tourtelot]

Maybe. But in the hands of a competent boomman (and that is key,) the 816 can pull dialog out of some pretty bad locations. What is your experience the the Super CMIT compared to other mics; have you compared it to an 816 in a real location?

D.

[Earcatcher]

I've tested them side by side in real location set situations and the result of that test was that the 816 would not be my first choice in difficult dialog situations although it has earned its reputation for a reason. The SuperCMIT is simply amazing for picking up dialog in cluttered environments. I don't own any of the two as I am not that often in need of such a specialized mic. I manage most situations with the standard CMIT 5 U.

[Rolo 46]

I understand that there are some issues when the super CMIT -5U is panned hard or moved fast
Curious whooshing artefacts from the processer
Standard CMIT 5U lovely, but not a RF capsule so prone to humidty,an everyday occurance on a beach imho.