Recording Live with a PA

[tINY]

There's no money for post but you can hire a PA to do a recording????

This does not make any sense.



-tINY

[joelpatterson]

"Making sense" is often the last thing on the agenda.

[hywyn]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

"Making sense" is often the last thing on the agenda.

So true!!!

I've talked to the artist and label about this job, - stuff such as recording dry and crossfading an atmos and applause track at the mix or mastering stage. Because the PA is such a shitty affair I told them I'd arrive early to record the room. I didn't go so far as to say I'd record impulse responses but if they showed any interest I might have gone that far.
I'm not even after a lot of money for post, but considering the complete disrespect for the process and my intentions I found myself suggesting that they at least get a decent PA! £50. - hire isn't much in the scheme of things. Now they won't even do that.

This has been advertised on the artists web-site as an invitation to a live recording of his next album, so no pressure then. What he'll get will be little better than a bootleg recording.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by hywyn

So true!!!

I've talked to the artist and label about this job, - stuff such as recording dry and crossfading an atmos and applause track at the mix or mastering stage. Because the PA is such a shitty affair I told them I'd arrive early to record the room. I didn't go so far as to say I'd record impulse responses but if they showed any interest I might have gone that far.
I'm not even after a lot of money for post, but considering the complete disrespect for the process and my intentions I found myself suggesting that they at least get a decent PA! £50. - hire isn't much in the scheme of things. Now they won't even do that.

This has been advertised on the artists web-site as an invitation to a live recording of his next album, so no pressure then. What he'll get will be little better than a bootleg recording.

If this is indeed the situation, the whole thing sounds like "Amateur Night". You might want the experience, you might like what the artist does, but I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft (3m) barge poll!

Using a Roland Stage piano, (does the artist sing as well?) you don't need an amazing PA system. A well set up club system may well be good enough.

If there is no money to record the project, 1000/1 chance its not worth the tape/vinyl/plastic its going to end up on.

Regards to all


Roland

[hywyn]

Originally Posted by Roland

If this is indeed the situation, the whole thing sounds like "Amateur Night". You might want the experience, you might like what the artist does, but I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft (3m) barge poll!

Using a Roland Stage piano, (does the artist sing as well?) you don't need an amazing PA system. A well set up club system may well be good enough.

If there is no money to record the project, 1000/1 chance its not worth the tape/vinyl/plastic its going to end up on.

Regards to all


Roland

It's a favour, right.....and no, I don't want the experience. I might have at the outset. I'd have helped them find a suitable venue with a piano, but before any plans have been unravelled the venue and date are up on his web-site. He's a good artist with good intentions and I've signalled how I think this should be done so it's up to him to fight his corner. The situation is such that the job will be done regardless, but right now I feel disregarded and compromised.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by hywyn

It's a favour, right.....and no, I don't want the experience. I might have at the outset. I'd have helped them find a suitable venue with a piano, but before any plans have been unravelled the venue and date are up on his web-site. He's a good artist with good intentions and I've signalled how I think this should be done so it's up to him to fight his corner. The situation is such that the job will be done regardless, but right now I feel disregarded and compromised.

My point is that the job sounds like a cock-up before it has started. However well intentioned he is, if he/those who are putting out this album won't set some professional budget (hell something like this could be done for around £1,000) it will likely be a train wreck. If you record it and it goes right, you might get a thank you, though judging by the lack of regard you are receiving even before the job I wouldn't count on it. If it is a disaster, I guarantee that it will be all your fault, and for what, no pay? I'd rather work the checkout at Tesco's.

Regards



Roland

[hywyn]

Originally Posted by Roland

My point is that the job sounds like a cock-up before it has started. However well intentioned he is, if he/those who are putting out this album won't set some professional budget (hell something like this could be done for around £1,000) it will likely be a train wreck. If you record it and it goes right, you might get a thank you, though judging by the lack of regard you are receiving even before the job I wouldn't count on it. If it is a disaster, I guarantee that it will be all your fault, and for what, no pay? I'd rather work the checkout at Tesco's.

Regards



Roland

I know Roland, ....I know.
I'll be splitting the feeds and multi-tracking so they may be able to rescue something if the room mics aren't adequate. Meanwhile I'm already working on my alias!
Cheers,
Steve

[Jim vanBergen]

Well....getting back to the original post, I'd look at:

option A)
short stacks (three to four cabinets) of L'Acoustic DV-Dosc, JBL Vertec 4887 or 4888, and Meyer M2D or M1D arrays. In each case I'd look for them to be stacked above a subwoofer both for height, convenience, and elevation.

option B)
a mid-high with a 15" LF driver and 2" horn (Like a Meyer MSL2 or CQ-1, or an EAW KF650, or D&B C7 loudspeaker.

Either of these would work well in this room size. You might, however, opt to bring cardioid mics in addition to your omnis just in case you need off axis rejection.

Jim

[Roland]

What I can't understand is where the earthworks come in? Are they for capturing the audience? Will the artist be singing and playing? If its only a stage piano and voice, I wouldn't worry about trying to get a PA that will go lower than 50 hz.

The A option above (4-5 cabs a side of line array) is ridiculous overkill, this room is about twice the area of my living room, I doubt they have a license for more than 100 people in that sort of space. A decent quality club system will do this with ease.

Regards



Roland

[Jim vanBergen]

Well- just to be accurate:

Compact line arays like Meyer M1D and L'Acoustics DV-dosc are much smaller than most club PAs I have found in the NYC metro area. They also can work evenly at varying dynamics and provide a consistent SPL across a venue that cheap PA speakers will not do. Hywyn does not specify if his venue has a balcony, extended seating, or secondary rooms that can quickly fill a small space from 50 people to 500. Without knowing, I completely stand by my post that a flexible and powerful compact line array is the BEST choice- much like my preferred vocal mic of a Neumannn U47 or Telefunken 251, but hey- availability and price are always a concern. But those too may be overkill when an SM7 or SM58 can do a fine job.

I noticed Roland did not make a specific suggestion for PA, though I'd be interested to hear what PA you'd suggest he rent for this, to insure he can cover a space evenly and NOT ruin his recording, which is his primary concern. As far as a bid-high that can provide 50Hz- down how many dB compared to a 1k signal? I assume its down over 9dB, which is why a compact sub for the lowest two octaves of an 88-key instrument is required, depending on program.

As far as ridiculous overkill, IMHO that's miking a Roland Digital Piano, whereas getting a PA capable of handling whatever is thrown at you, from 50-500 people, with any type of music YET without destroying your recording-- that is simply common sense, my friend. As always, your mileage may vary and all opinions are appreciated!!

Cheers!
Jim vB

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Well- just to be accurate:

Compact line arays like Meyer M1D and L'Acoustics DV-dosc are much smaller than most club PAs I have found in the NYC metro area. They also can work evenly at varying dynamics and provide a consistent SPL across a venue that cheap PA speakers will not do. Hywyn does not specify if his venue has a balcony, extended seating, or secondary rooms that can quickly fill a small space from 50 people to 500. Without knowing, I completely stand by my post that a flexible and powerful compact line array is the BEST choice- much like my preferred vocal mic of a Neumannn U47 or Telefunken 251, but hey- availability and price are always a concern. But those too may be overkill when an SM7 or SM58 can do a fine job.

I noticed Roland did not make a specific suggestion for PA, though I'd be interested to hear what PA you'd suggest he rent for this, to insure he can cover a space evenly and NOT ruin his recording, which is his primary concern. As far as a bid-high that can provide 50Hz- down how many dB compared to a 1k signal? I assume its down over 9dB, which is why a compact sub for the lowest two octaves of an 88-key instrument is required, depending on program.

As far as ridiculous overkill, IMHO that's miking a Roland Digital Piano, whereas getting a PA capable of handling whatever is thrown at you, from 50-500 people, with any type of music YET without destroying your recording-- that is simply common sense, my friend. As always, your mileage may vary and all opinions are appreciated!!

Cheers!
Jim vB

Well if you ever have seen a U47 or a Telefunken 251 on a PA I would be fascinated. I am assuming that hywyn has no intention of miking a digital piano to amplify it.

50hz -3db on a compact sub/top system like a a Mackie or HK is perfectly reasonable to expect. Those systems cost about £3-4k so hire is around £80-100, the line arrays you are proposing costs around the £20k mark. Dry hire rates for the cabs alone would be around £300-400. In Hywyn's original post he mentioned that the room was 60ft long 20ft wide. Didn't mention any other rooms or areas that had to be covered.
He did however mention that he intended to record the gig for a "live" album. As I mentioned in my first post, the whole thing smacks of Amateur night and jobs like this are usually best handled by anybody other than yourself. All you get is a load of grief and no pay, I know because I have done them, albeit 27 years ago. I have a financial interest in a PA company and we hire D&B Audiotechnik amongst other stuff. We provide sound from concert halls to festivals for artists from Rolf Harris to the Sugar Babes to orchestras.

The job Hywyn is trying to do is relatively straight forward, when people start arguing the budget for a £200, its time to walk.

Regards to all


Roland

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by Roland

The job Hywyn is trying to do is relatively straight forward, when people start arguing the budget for a £200, its time to walk.

Regards to all


Roland

Well said, Roland. In the end, a bad situation is a bad situation and Hywyn is stuck in the middle of it. Best of luck!!!