Live Recording has less bleed on close miking..

[Ribbonmicguy]

Hi guys,

My first post on remote forum.

Last Thursday, I did a remote recording in an indoor stadium (yeah you bet the acoustic sucks! )

It was recorded using Digidesign Venue, 48channel, direct to Protools! It was very easy and convenient!

During preproduction and setting up, I was being extra careful with the drums, since I'd love to get a good isolation, making sure everything is in phase and I'm getting a very minimum bleed from close miking.

I was using DPA (4011 i think) cardioids on overheads,
KM84 on Hihat and Ride
Sm57 top/bottom on Snare
SM98 on kick
AKG tom mics (i forgot what models, supplied by the rental company)

The FOH main speakers were EAW706 line array, 8 stack on each side. I was able to get the FOH engineer to play it at 100db and less ( he was playing it at 115db at first) and keep telling me, 'oh that's standard man!' but fortunately he was easy to work with..

Now, when I solo the drums only in my monitor, I could barely hear the bleed of the stadium or even bleed from snare to hihat or hihat to snare.

I was positioning the snare mic behind hihat and...
positioning the hihat mic facing away from the snare (hoping that they'd be in out of phase position)

The overheads were time aligned and phase aligned with the snare mic. I'd post some pics/sound of the drums isolated.

TO me this is a new phenomena. I now understand why people love to record drums in a big room. THe isolation still bugs me though.

Anyone care to explain?

Cheers,

[jenkel16]

What about the isolation bugs you? From the description you gave it sounds like you meant to isolate the snare from the hi hat by use of mic placement.

[Remoteness]

Harmoko,

It sounds like you're on your way to becoming an awesome remote recording engineer. Kudos to you -- Keep up the good work.

[Ribbonmicguy]

Thank Steve!

My involvement with remote recording is about 4-5 times a year.

Here is the picture of me on the console. More pictures to come...

I have pics of the Java Jazz Festival. I got lucky. Bob James, Nathan East was in my hall.

Pictures coming...


There's the focsurite ISA 220 pair on the corner.

Cheers,

[Remoteness]

Is that your Digidesign Venue?

How do you like it?

[Ribbonmicguy]

Works great!

It was my 2nd time using it. 1st time was for the Java Jazz Festival.
I was comfortable on the board (except for some routing and matrix which the chief engineer needed to help me)

The direct to protools is awesome, since you only need one Digilink cable for 32 channel. One thing that I found lacking is line level input near the console for outboard preamps that you want to stack close near the console. (we were using the insert return for mic preamp outboards in this case)

I get a very clean sounding recording, without any a/c, cable, rf noise with this setup though. Since there's only one digital cable going to the D-show (Venue).

Cheers,

[mspence@mac.com]

Originally Posted by Ribbonmicguy

Works great!


I was comfortable on the board (except for some routing and matrix which the chief engineer needed to help me)

Glad you had a good experience. I'm getting my Venue in the morning, and other than playing around with one for a few minutes last summer, it will be a total stranger to me. And we open our show Friday :-) I got the HD3x card for mine, so I can just run a pair of DigiLink cables to my HD3 rig and get 64 tracks at once. I can even leave my entire rack at home and carry in my Mac and just plug it in. Man, I'm looking forward to this! Soundchecks should be a breeze. Get levels, send the orchestra to catering, and mix. Any gotchas I should watch for?

Michael Spence
justpushplay Remote Recording Services
www.justpushplayav.com

[Jim vanBergen]

Sounds like you had a great time!

The question you posted- managing to NOT have a lot of bleed and room sound-
especially for drums- is best for remote work. Congrats for doing a great job! Were you suprised that the drums sound good with the OH mics capturing direct sound a not a "drum room" sound?

That's part of the studio world that sometimes escapes me- when you have an AMAZING room and can get a huge sound, great... but don't be FORCED to have room tone when its not needed. There is so much talk about, "How do I get my drums to sound like John Bonham on"When the Levee Breaks?" Please....

I'm thrilled there are more and more people doing a great job out there. I get to do less of it every year though sometimes on big shows (I'm currently in pre-production for a 96-track TV broadcast with 50 piece orch and cast of 20).

Keep up the good work, bro!

Cheers,

JvB

[AdamJay]

i've found mic positioning on live remote jobs to be much more crucial than in a studio.
in the studio, so much of the sound of the kit is coming from the overheads. sometimes i don't even bring the tom mics up in the mix.

in a crappy venue its almost the opposite.

sounds like you made some great decisions with positioning and mic selection as well.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by AdamJay

i've found mic positioning on live remote jobs to be much more crucial than in a studio.
in the studio, so much of the sound of the kit is coming from the overheads. sometimes i don't even bring the tom mics up in the mix.

in a crappy venue its almost the opposite.

sounds like you made some great decisions with positioning and mic selection as well.

I Don't know... For me about 60% of my drum sound is the ovverheads where ever I'm recording them.

[7rojo7]

Big dead room is best for detail, keeps the reflections far away in every sense, critical distance works as well as a wall.
I usually point my hat mic if I need one at the same angle as the overhead of the same side, I think you might have meant something else than having said that you pointed your hat and sn mics out of phase.
If I do any kind of metal or thrash or reggae I'm using 80% direct drums, sometimes double mic'd, sometimes with triggers, and Thrash tends to wear you down on the cymbal theory.
Where did you mix from? did you do FOH from a remote location or is there something I don't understand from the picture?
What's the price of a Venue? I have an HD3 rig that I cart out and people are asking me if I do FOH (which I do but I don't have my own service) and I'm thinking of investing in my own system for theatre sized projects and renting bigger for larger jobs.

[Ribbonmicguy]

I get approximately the same ratio with Steve on that one.

As far as the Venue: it was such a smooth operation. We had a few glitch while typing the I/O matrix, but wasn't really a problem.

I always try to capture the kit for drums (for pop/jazz/folk) but for heavier stuff (metal), I'm more interested in the cymbals miking.

I've done a few live recording when I was in L.A, basically it was just a simple 8 track, with my mentor, Drew Daniels and Ron Streicher, but bleed was never a problem for jazz and classical stuff. In fact, we try to get more blend thru stereo miking and spot miking.

Will post more! :D

[Remoteness]

I usually point my hat mic (if I need one) in the same direction and angle as the snare mic.

My overheads are a different story. I usually position them over the kit equally pointing straight down. Let’s say you have the hat, snare, left tom and crash (left side of kit) -- I place the mic in between them equally. I do the same with the right side positioning the mic equally between the right tom, floor, ride and crash cymbals.

[7rojo7]

It wasn't a remote gig but I just had a kit so big in here that I used 3 "OH" (M260s, which I do sometimes even if the kit is small), a hat which I didn't use in the mix and a ride spot which I didn't use in the mix, but put them up in dreaded fear that this cat couldn't play which was only half true.
I have that same theory about the center points but I usually have some kind of angle, alot of times I'm pointing from over the drummers head from the back towards the front of the kit working from opposite sides (wide xy), right mic takes left and vica versaI also have the azimuth of the mics so that on a 1 or 2 rack tom kit that the 1st tom is on one extreme side and the floor tom(s) on the other and all the overhead mics are fairly close together (live) Hyper cardioids tend to leave a hole between the L and R of the kit so if I hear a hole I'll pull up the center mic enough to get a little more kik and sn in) in the studio there's a closed room to deal with and things get more complicated. I like the stage drum sound and yes, it seems much drier (except for monitor bleed, no biggie, ambience for another track that you won't find on your digital reverb) and there's always the bass in everything. Inverse square, critical distance etc...
Steve I think we met once in 1978 outside SPEAKS I was 17 and interested in the 8track mobile rig in a van and whoever was there was very nice to me and showed me the inside, maybe it wasn't you but I think it could have been, they also sent the broadcast to WLIR. It was for a Twisted Sister gig way before they got famous. I was just a kid that lived downstairs from the gtrist and drummer. I said to myself "I want one of those".

[Remoteness]

Yeah, the three overhead mic idea works well for me…

I (usually) place two M160s pointing straight down hard left and right. Then I place the center or what I call the “Kit” or “Sweet Spot” mic over the drummer’s right shoulder. I get my primary sound from these mics. I sneak in the foot and snare accordingly. If tom mics are used I blend them in for a bit more definition.

Wow, you have been posting here for awhile. Did you just realize you meet me in the 70s today or always knew it…?

The Twisted Sister gig you are referring to was on October 31st, 1979. I remember this because I had backstage passes and a limo setup to go see Iiggy Pop at the Palladium with the folks from WPIX-FM and I had to blow off the gig to do Twisted.
Yeah, that was in Island Park - Right? There’s ra ecord that came out from that live broadcast and recording. The CD is called – “Never Say Never: Club Daze, Vol. 2 [LIVE]” I never got credited but, I can say that about a lot of records I did in the late 70s and early 80s. I really didn’t care about that kind of stuff. Now, I wish I did.

You were 17 and I was 21… It’s very cool to know you’re still at it my man. Do you ever come to NYC? If so, look me up.

[Remoteness]

Here's a link to amazon's webpage listing “Never Say Never: Club Daze, Vol. 2 [LIVE]”

This what the CD looks like...

[henryrobinett]

Wow! That's cool. A kind of this is your life moment. And I was there to witness it.

I gotta say this is such a cool forum. I learn stuff here every day. At least different points of views and possibilities to try different stuff. Thanks Steve!

[Remoteness]

Thanks a lot Henry! I have also learned a lot from this and other forums on GS.

Thank YOU and EVERYONE on the GS BB.

[7rojo7]

I guees I was 18 then, you're one of the few people who'd inspired me to get into this, one of the others was an engineer who did a very bad job on a project of mine that made me want to learrn about audio. I was playing in that era, did some roadie work, I could do drum tech and gtrr tech at that point. I didn't get into recording until a few years later, then I worked at duplication specialists where I got a good start, later I moved to the city and did the assistant blossoming routine. I've seen you mention Denny McNerny once, I worked with him a few times. say hey,
From 95 I've been in europe, 3 years in Paris, 2 years in Rome and 6 years here where I started a studio 2 years ago, before opening the studio I was writng and recording music for dance and theater (the theater is dead here) and co producing some seasonal multimedia events. Sadly, the studio is kind of slow at the moment, I've suffered a handful of personal tragedies recently, I'm going to take a little regenerative vacation and come back kickin.
I see that that little van has become quite something special and yes it just dawned on me thinking about splitters and the first time I saw one maybe.
And reading here on GS has helped me in many ways and I like to help out too if I can.

[Remoteness]

Wow, thank you for sharing that story...

This blows my mind. The timing of this situation and story is awesome. I am very happy to have been one of the folks that helped motivate your career. And, I was only a few years older than you. Believe it or not, I have the same emotion about my craft as I did back then, maybe even more.

I feel this forum gave people a chance to see who I really am. What I'm really made of. I've been like this all my life and I'm very pleased to have an opportunity to share it with the members of Gearslutz.com

Do you ever visit the States? If you ever make it to NYC, please look me up.

[Remoteness]

7rojo7,

Are you planning to bring some "Love and Light" to the States anytime soon?
A vacation or holiday situation or something to that affect.

It would be cool to meet up.

[MBishopSFX]

Re: better isolation in a big room -

There's far less "bad" bleed into the mics when you don't have close, reflective walls nearby. That's also the joy of working in a bigger, good-sounding studio. What makes the room good-sounding is the quality of REFLECTED sound that the mics will see as bleed. For me, a dead room doesn't equal good. That's why I seek out LARGE live rooms to record just a trio. For instance, I have an acoustic trio plus vocal session scheduled at Legacy's A509 room. Yes, it's expensive but if the performance is worth preserving, it's worth doing it right all the way.

Paying attention to the off-axis response of the mics you're using is just as important since that's the part that picks up the "bleed." Any mic's performance is the sum of the on-axis AND off-axis response.