Figure 8 in acoustic recordings (thinking of Schoeps MK8)

[ISedlacek]

I tried only Jecklin disc (and liked it better without it ...). Is Schneider any different ? I will have a look ...

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I tried only Jecklin disc (and liked it better without it ...). Is Schneider any different ? I will have a look ...

The Schneider puts the microphone capsule on the surface of a sphere and is reckoned to be better than a Jecklin in many cases.

It will probably sound similar to the Schoeps Sphere and you can use the mics for something else when you are not using it.

Where are you in the Czech Republic? I travel to Central Europe by car several times a year and may be able to pop by with my disk if you want to try. Though it would depend where you are.

EDIT: OK, found you - extreme northern part of Bohemia - I normally go to the extreme other end, but maybe.....

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

So I played today with two MK8 capsules ... Blumlein, MS or even "Polarflex" setup (omni + fig 8). My application is solo recording of acoustic instruments. To make it short: it all sounded nice, but a simple AB (omni or cardioid) sounded always a way better to me: more natural, spacy, fuller, more pleasant to listen to than any of those ...

Hi Ivo!

Did you try "AB" with the fig 8's? I mean both mic's side by side with some distance and pointing in the same direction/angle.


/Peter

[George Gilliam]

We've had excellent results using the Schneider sphere/disc with Schoeps MK2s, Sennheiser 8020, and Josephson C617 pairs of omnis. Wonderful with smaller ensembles, chamber music, etc. I'm not sure about the results with a large orchestra, as I have no experience. I expect it would certainly need supporting omni flankers/outriggers.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by nkf

How did you come to the '4kHz' assumption?

It's not an "assumption". 4kHz has a wavelength of 86mm and diffraction starts to be a problem when half the wavelength equals the dimension of the head basket, ie ~40mm.

[Tom McC]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I may try a bit more but I feel that I can safely return to pure AB style )

Seems rather a shame not to milk those MK8's for every possibility before
sending them back...maybe 'shuffling' to increase spaciousness?

[Rolo 46]

How about coming back a few feet, but staying in the critical distance for 8s?

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Hi Ivo!

Did you try "AB" with the fig 8's? I mean both mic's side by side with some distance and pointing in the same direction/angle.


/Peter

Good idea, I will try

Originally Posted by John Willett

The Schneider puts the microphone capsule on the surface of a sphere and is reckoned to be better than a Jecklin in many cases.

It will probably sound similar to the Schoeps Sphere and you can use the mics for something else when you are not using it.

Where are you in the Czech Republic? I travel to Central Europe by car several times a year and may be able to pop by with my disk if you want to try. Though it would depend where you are.

EDIT: OK, found you - extreme northern part of Bohemia - I normally go to the extreme other end, but maybe.....

Sounds interesting. I am just 1 hour from Prague ... so it means I can also go easily to Prague myself ...

[ISedlacek]

So I tried fig 8 stereo in AB setup and compared the results to the same setup using MK22, MK21 and MK2 capsules. I listened carefully but could not find any sonic advantage of MK8 AB used as stereo ... comparing to all the others it sounded a bit "congested" as if ... not so soft, full and relaxed like the other capsules (in their own particular style).

So it seems fig 8 is not for me, within my daily needs (recording solo acoustic instruments in the studio enviroment).

I may try Schneider disc when the opportunity comes. I already tried Jecklin disc few years ago, but did not find any advantage for solo recordings ...

In a few days will have an opportunity to try these mics:

TELEFUNKEN-ELEKTROAKUSTIK.COM | TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik™ - ELA M 260 Stereo Sets

I am quite curious, I heard very nice reports about them, so let us see whether they bring an alternative sound to Schoeps (extra warmth and punch), or they will remain in a lower sound league overall for me ... Sometimes I would welcome warmer, bigger sound for some instruments ...

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Blumlein: the instruments sounded as from some undefined virtual space source and not that "sweet"

Blumlein needs a large room with great acoustics. Its needs the rear lobes to enrich the direct sound with the (incoherent) reverberant room sound. It is the most uncoloured of arrays and if the room is a little dead, small, or uninteresting (acoustically speaking), it will be relatively disappointing. Spacing mics can add extra air when none is provided by the acoustic. A large room is required to get a decent time of arrival difference from the reflected paths.

[ISedlacek]

David, yes, I believe it ... 99% of time I however spend in my studio, so the tools should suit these conditions ... And there - whatever I tried, I did not get clearly better results with fig 8 comparing to the usual AB setups of MK22, MK21 or MK2 capsules ...

[king2070lplaya]

I find the figure 8 is often most helpful to control reflections in narrow rooms, or keep intrusive sound sources isolated from pickup. Almost a utility mic in these situations. This is where I use it in a spaced pair and it works perfectly. Something to keep in mind when deciding whether to own a pair or not.

[Rolo 46]

An 8 is not utility....
Spaced pairs are blurry
8s are precise.

[aracu]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

David, yes, I believe it ... 99% of time I however spend in my studio, so the tools should suit these conditions ... And there - whatever I tried, I did not get clearly better results with fig 8 comparing to the usual AB setups of MK22, MK21 or MK2 capsules ...

Have you tried the fig 8 as a side mic with the mk2, mk21, or mk22 as
mid mic in an ms array? I recently recorded a solo violinist in my studio
using 8/21 ms combo and was pleased with the results, and preferred
it to various other set ups I have tried in the past with solo violin.

[nkf]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

It's not an "assumption". 4kHz has a wavelength of 86mm and diffraction starts to be a problem when half the wavelength equals the dimension of the head basket, ie ~40mm.

I contacted Jürgen Breitlow, now director of R&D at Neumann and involved at the development of the d-01 (together with Stephan Peus), to let me know what he thinks about all this. It took some days because he was on vacation.
He said in a nutshell that the d-01 should be fine in a Blumlein setup, nobody complained so far. Special care was done in the construction of the basket, especially the small crosspieces were reduced to diminish diffraction problems.
My personal conclusion: Although I see SDCs mostly as superior (except noise floor) there are cases where LDCs can play a role, despite the fact of being not as 'ideal' in measurement results because of certain sound qualities (e.g. like another 'LDC', the DPA 4041). These seem to depend on the amount of efforts to fine tune the mechanical side. It's all in the detail compromises and efforts.
Therefore I will try Blumlein with my d-01s the next time I have the opportunity. If someone is interested I can report back.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by nkf

I contacted Jürgen Breitlow, now director of R&D at Neumann and involved at the development of the d-01 (together with Stephan Peus), to let me know what he thinks about all this. It took some days because he was on vacation.
He said in a nutshell that the d-01 should be fine in a Blumlein setup, nobody complained so far. Special care was done in the construction of the basket, especially the small crosspieces were reduced to diminish diffraction problems.
My personal conclusion: Although I see SDCs mostly as superior (except noise floor) there are cases where LDCs can play a role, despite the fact of being not as 'ideal' in measurement results because of certain sound qualities (e.g. like another 'LDC', the DPA 4041). These seem to depend on the amount of efforts to fine tune the mechanical side. It's all in the detail compromises and efforts.
Therefore I will try Blumlein with my d-01s the next time I have the opportunity. If someone is interested I can report back.

The D-01 is a very nice mic., I wish I could afford a pair.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

In a few days will have an opportunity to try these mics:

TELEFUNKEN-ELEKTROAKUSTIK.COM | TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik™ - ELA M 260 Stereo Sets

I am quite curious, I heard very nice reports about them, so let us see whether they bring an alternative sound to Schoeps (extra warmth and punch), or they will remain in a lower sound league overall for me ... Sometimes I would welcome warmer, bigger sound for some instruments ...

I am quite interested in your mind about these mics.

[Shaman]

Hey Ivo

I made the same experience as you.
Blumlein, XY etc. sound too narrow / 2D for me too.

AB or even decca tree all the way-
not even Dave Pensado cares for mono compatibility anymore lol.

BTW I like your work and the results speak for themselves -
just bought some of your titles on iTunes.

I´m curious to try schoeps for myself.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

I am quite interested in your mind about these mics (Telefunken ELA-M 260).

They sound nice , look astonishing, packed and equipped with greatest care, but for the purpose of recording delicate acoustic music - too much self-noise ... much more than I would expect ... no use for me ...