Making friends with stage bleed

[KevinNYC]

Hi Slutz,

I've been doing a lot of live recording of the various bands I'm in onto the Alesis HD24 I bought and really enjoying it...

My particularly problem I haven't found a satisfactory solution for yet is snare bleed into vocal mics...

One group I'm in has a very heavy hitting drummer and i noticed that if I even use the slightest amount of close mic'ed snare in the mix it's way to loud.

With everything else close micced it sounds strange with the snare coming only from the overheads and vocal mics...

Any tips or tricks you guys have used to help out with this dilemma? Of course, compressing the vocals only exacerbates the issue, and I'm afraid to otherwise try to gate or downward expand the vocal tracks as I'm sure that will sound unnatural with the changing volume...

I'm of course making the best with what I've got but I want to feel like I have a little more control of the situation...

Has anyone tried installing one of those mic stand attachable gobos for use with vocals as a way to lessen the bleed into the vocal mics?

I don't feel like dicking around with that clear plexi stuff around the kit but am perplexed as to what to try next....

Thanks in advance for your wisdom!

[peterk426]

I'm also a live engineer and deal with multiple drummers.Some good.Some bad.Sometimes I get a drummer who Just taps the snare ( Little Velocity ) and won't bleed and it comes out of the house monitors beautifully.And I really think thats what it comes down to.The drummer.If he hits like a barbarian than he is a crappy drummer and theres nothing you can do about the bleed.You cant gate the snare. Just be honest with him and tell him he sucks and he shouldnt be a drummer.Also,Maybe try a drum shield,which my company is in the process of getting,But than kind of takes the element of live sound away,but really keeps the bleed out of the vocal mics..And do you mean the Drummer is singing? and the snare is going into his mic? or you mean it bleeds all the way into the frontmans mic? If you have monitor mixes on stage,maybe try taking the snare out of the mix.Than fire the drummer and hire a much more talented one..Theres 1000's in new york,I know because I live here too

also what kind of mic do u have on the snare? what kind of mic is the singer using?

[KevinNYC]

Peter,

Thanks for the reply. The drummer is many things, crappy not among them. He spends the majority of his time traveling the globe with one of the most respected jazz musicians on the planet, playing the kind of venues and with other professionals that you and I mostly only dream about.

In light of that, telling him to quit playing drums will probably not be wise. I also don't want to ask him to alter how he plays. I've spent a lot of time on both sides of the glass and whenever I've been the performer and the engineer asks the drummer to play differently to make his or her job more convenient the performance is almost always adversely affected.

So with the baseline that the drummer is superb and that I will not ask him to alter his playing I'm left with modifying the recording techniques.

The mics involved are standard fare...I'm merely taking pre-fader direct outs from the console so as to minimize the headache I cause the live engineer. (Believe me I'd love to use my collection of pres and other outboard).

If I recall correctly the mic on the snare was a sennheiser (e609 perhaps?) and the mics on the 2 vocalists were probably 58s. The drummer sings but did not do so on this gig (when he does I have to grapple with bleed into the hat mic)..

It looks like I will be looking into a small unobtusive gobo of sorts to try and minimize the issue...


Of course, I also play in a 13 piece Afrobeat group where the drummer barely hits the snare...which provides a totally different set of challenges while mixing. I do prefer, however, a drummer that hits the drums with some force and consistancy..

I think the ultimate answer though is going to be to do the best with what I have to work with ...

[hbphotoav]

All the same, a drummer who plays the same way on a 12x12 platform on a 60x40 stage in an auditorium or arena as he/she does on a 12x20 club stage with a 10' hard ceiling, 12" from the backstage drywall should take a cue and be willing to modify the level (though not the intensity) of his/her playing. There's a huge difference between a drummer with great hands, and one with merely heavy hands...

That said, you'll probably do better trying some of the Audix line of vocal mics (OM5 or OM7, maybe?) or perhaps BeyerDynamic M69/M88, for their lower sensitivity and tighter patterns, to deal with the bleed. A KMS104, KSM9 or Beta87 will NOT be your friend. 58s are better than some, but the OMs or the Beyers might be better enough to make a difference. I can't imagine any singer I know who would work a stand with a gobo (I'm assuming you mean a metal-and-foam device like the sE Reflexion (http://www.seelectronics.com/project...flexion-filter) at a gig. Seems that you'd need the singer facing the drums for the thing to work, anyway... would work in a studio, but on a stage... notsomuch.

IEMs will also help to lower stage volume levels, especially if there's much drums in the wedge mixes. A 5' plexi shield, while ugly, unwieldy and a general PITA to deal with, will cut a fair amount of cymbals from out-front vox mics... a loud snare well struck, though, not so much.

[Jim Williams]

If this drummer is the touring pro you describe, just tell him to lay off the snare a bit. He's a pro and can take instructions.

If you ask.

[KevinNYC]

Harry,

Thanks for the reply. The SE reflexion was the device I was thinking of but couldn't remember the name...I wasn't thinking about using that on the vocal mic but positioned rather around the snare...

Point taken with regard to musicians modifying the dynamics of their playing to match the room, and while there may be improvements possible in this area I believe they would be minimal.

I appreciate the mic suggestions and I think I might make the largest gains in finding mics that play better under these conditions... I think I'll try the M88.. I've had good results with Audix mics on the drums...I suppose I'll take a look at their handheld vocal line...

In ear monitors are probably not an option nor the plexi as I'm trying to interfere as little as possible with the live engineer/venue's rig...

[hbphotoav]

Snare goes absolutely everywhere... it resonates from top and bottom, and when you add the rimshot "THWACK!" that most rockers feel is necessary... well, then. Put that into a small club with a low ceiling, and you're mixing everything to the snare. Unless lead gtr is running a full-stack wide open...

Here's where we are at church in a 10,000 ft2 room... a rocking drummer (caged in plexi with the rear 703 panels in place, no roof) in that room, empty, with a couple of 30w guitar amps in 703 enclosures and a small SWR Workingman 12 bass amp tipped back at the bassist, averages 85dB(A) at FOH, 70+ft/25m away. Console faders are full down... nothing through the PA... IEMs on the band/vocals. All snare and cymbals. Makes mixing at 90dB impossible... at 95dB(A), we're able to actually mix the drums and get a nice visceral groove happening.

It ain't (necessarily) the drummer... it's just physics.

Also... IEMs don't have to be a problem for FOH... a Behringer HA-8000 driven by a A&H WZ3-12M (it has its own split... you'd just need a short XLR snake to the main house snake, and could take your record out from the 16 inserts) through Shure SE115s (or similar) can work beautifully. PITA for you, but a lot less stage level. Go to a StudioLive 16.4.2 and everyone in the band with an iPad can control his own mix. We do it (24 band channels from the stage) every week, with volunteer musicians and playas...

[KevinNYC]

Jim, yes and no... On the road he plays what he is paid for and told to...with me he plays what he wants to (as our cash flow is minimal)...so it's a balancing act. The more it feels like a job, the more he'll treat it that way, which is to my disadvantage.

In the end it's psychology 101....I need to find a way for it to be his idea

[KevinNYC]

Yes, everything's a factor, and thus continues the endless process of compromises, work-arounds, and tweakage in chasing what we want to hear...and somehow through this I need to worry about my own performance and enjoy the whole ball of wax in the process

[Arthurelletson]

Just read this wrong, thought it said make friends with stages bleed

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by KevinNYC

Jim, yes and no... On the road he plays what he is paid for and told to...with me he plays what he wants to (as our cash flow is minimal)...so it's a balancing act. The more it feels like a job, the more he'll treat it that way, which is to my disadvantage.

In the end it's psychology 101....I need to find a way for it to be his idea

If he's the pro you say he is, one listen to the playback and he should be telling you, "I think I played the snare too hard"?

At least that's what the pro's I've worked with would say. It's to your advantage to have this drummer play the stuff the way you want it, not the way he wants it. In that regard, I'd just ask him how much he wants to "do it your way". It's all about results, not egos brused.

[RobAnderson]

I think before we all go blaming on the drummer and telling him to adjust his playing to suit the needs of the sound man (especially in jazz!), we might want to examine the mic choice and placement for, and mic technique of, the vocalist.

It the singer is standing directly in front of the drum kit and/or if they are not staying on their mic, the problem might be corrected by moving the singer stage right of the drums a little, and making the singer aware that they should stay on mic more.

Admittedly, it sometimes appears that a lot of jazz drummers nowadays seem to think that they need to play at hard rock levels and drown out everyone, but trying to restrain them may not be the only way (or even the best way) of dealing with the problem.

Switching to a hypercard on the singer may help (if you are currently using a cardioid). Not sure what technique you are using for overheads, but using a tighter, more minimalist technique there may also help matters vis a vis getting the snare sound from overheads (like a coincident or near-coincident array instead of widely spaced - even a properly placed mono overhead mic can give you a kick a$$ drum sound on a live stage where the drums are bleeding all over).

Don't depend on the close drum mic as you would in a rock or RnB setting - in jazz, a snare mic is more often just to add a little focus to the overhead sound and maybe to help capture the brushes and subtle stuff - not to create a "snare sound"

Just my $.02 and it's worth every penny you paid for it...

[peterk426]

Today I mixed a band with drums 2 singers Sax keys n bass.The drummer goes,I think I played too hard last time ( or too loud ) so I simply said "So play softer,don't hit the drums so hard",and he was a pretty good enough drummer to tap the snare and make it not be over everything.I use a Akai D4's on the snare tom and floor tom..But what really picks up the Snare is the mic I have over the hi hat ( which hi hats are normally over the snare ) is a Se 300 Condenser.Now that mic is picking up the snare.But when I cue and listen to the singers inputs I don't hear the snare being picked up.so maybe it can be acoustics.but def asking the drummer to hit the snare lighter wouldnt hurt.The velocity on which he could be playing might be too much.You could try a old school micing technique ( which i've never used myself ) but try looking up grateful dead concerts back in the day,"but in live sound two were used, with one taped to the XLR of the main mic so to be as far away as possible. The 2nd mic was flipped out of phase to cancel the leakage of the band into the main mic. Gave you 10-15 dB more vocal level over the noise. Check early Greatful Dead stage set-ups"-Vin Leary.A Question I asked him recently about why 3 mics were being used on 1 singer..Maybe that can help

[KevinNYC]

Thanks Rob and Peter,

All great stuff. Thanks for the insights...I am definetely going to try the hyper cardiod mics for vox.

To be clear, we're not playing jazz, more along the lines of reggae/soul. Here is the drummer in question (to the right in these clips) playing with Monty Alexander.

Monty Alexander live from Jazz at Lincoln Center, "Harlem to Kingston Express" - YouTube

Jim would like to insinuate that he's not as professional as the drummers he gets to work with, which i think is a little overly presumptuous.

I'll post a clip of the performance in question. While not as polished as the Lincoln Center production, I'm still proud of as, in addition to running the audio and video recording, am performing as well..

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Admittedly, it sometimes appears that a lot of jazz drummers nowadays seem to think that they need to play at hard rock levels and drown out everyone, but trying to restrain them may not be the only way (or even the best way) of dealing with the problem. ...

Rob, I agree. Real jazz drummers are too rare. Good ones can play almost any genre at any level because they constantly listen and learn and adjust their touch as needed to blend and support the other players.

[RobAnderson]

But I'll say in their defense that loud can be exciting, and when the best of them really get really into it, I wouldn't want them holding back on my account.

It's just hard on a recording engineer trying to deal with lots of level on a (typically) tiny stage.

But at the end of the day, capturing a bland performance with amazing sonic integrity is really defeating the purpose.

Kevin, that's pretty crazy that you are trying to do all that yourself.

[KevinNYC]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Kevin, that's pretty crazy that you are trying to do all that yourself.

I'd say it's equal parts crazy, enjoyment, necessity and not wanting guys like Jim to tell me I'm doing it wrong or that his musicians otherwise take direction better than mine

Here is a clip of the performance in question:

Finotee-"Should Have Let Go" - YouTube

[RobAnderson]

Nice!

Well, the problem is not the vocalists being off mic (unless you are leaving the BG singer's mic open when she is dancing?).

I had a similar issue with drum bleed on a lead vocal recently, but in my case the singer was all over the place. I had to heavily compress it, but of course that brought up the nasty drum bleed. The fix I used was to set an expander to pump down the same amount that I was reducing with the compressor. It sounded weird when solo'ed, but helped quite a bit with the drum bleed that was being brought up whenever the singer was not singing, and sounded fine in the context of the mix.

You could move the lead singer center stage - she is directly in front of the drummer here, though that might limit the movement of the other girl (or maybe the other girl is lead on other songs?).

Switching to beta58's for the singers might help (it won't be night and day, but it should reduce the level of sidewall reflections). That is a small stage - will this always be happening in the same venue?

My other thought was that the drummer is stuck in the corner there. Is it really the vocal mic bleed that's a problem, or is it the coloration in the overheads? If that's the case, maybe try a sidechaining a compressor on the overhead mic's set to be keyed by the snare mic. That should make it pop a little better.

Can't see what mic's you are using on the OH - those cymbals definitely make it tricky! You could try hypercards or even figure-8 on the overheads too (was just thinking it could be cool to try Eric Valentine's "underheads" technique here, but that might be going a bit far...). Are you close mic'ing the toms? If so, do you have them gated?

[KevinNYC]

Rob,

You're very insightful. Yes, the other vocalist sings lead. Typically there is much more of the two of them singing together... No room to send her in my direction, where I'm stuck with my back up against the wall as it is (and hidden behind the cabs in this vid).

I haven't really rolled up my sleeves and started mixing yet, but i fear downward expansion will alter the sound too much between the vocal parts and instruments only (which is why i love tinkering on my own stuff as I'm not bound by studio time restrictions).

Yes the stage is small, there are 6 of us here trying to share the space....i've been on that same stage in my Afrobeat project with 13 people though so it's all relative.

Really appreciate your input Rob. Checked out your site. Great stuff...may have some festival stuff to discuss with you coming up this summer if you're interested....

[RobAnderson]

Wow - thanks Kevin! That's very kind of you.

Shoot me a PM or an email.

[Scott003]

for your snare problem, I'd say squash the snare track and mix it in lightly; the bleed from the snare will create a nice parallel-compressed sound.

[KevinNYC]

Scott, thanks for that tip! I'm going to give it a try!

Btw that drummer is up for a grammy this year for best reggae album...Monty Alexander Harlem to Kingston express live..... I'm happy when good things happen for cool people. Hope he wins...

[Boschen]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Snare goes absolutely everywhere... it resonates from top and bottom, and when you add the rimshot "THWACK!" that most rockers feel is necessary... well, then. Put that into a small club with a low ceiling, and you're mixing everything to the snare. Unless lead gtr is running a full-stack wide open...

Here's where we are at church in a 10,000 ft2 room... a rocking drummer (caged in plexi with the rear 703 panels in place, no roof) in that room, empty, with a couple of 30w guitar amps in 703 enclosures and a small SWR Workingman 12 bass amp tipped back at the bassist, averages 85dB(A) at FOH, 70+ft/25m away. Console faders are full down... nothing through the PA... IEMs on the band/vocals. All snare and cymbals. Makes mixing at 90dB impossible... at 95dB(A), we're able to actually mix the drums and get a nice visceral groove happening.

It ain't (necessarily) the drummer... it's just physics.

SNIP.

I've spend years trying to explain the above principles to a variety of folks in different settings. The explanation never sticks; sometimes it's just a fool's errand. Sometimes the room itself places demands on the sound; fail to satisfy these demands at your own peril.

[recordinghopkins]

Three suggestions from me:

1. Use a super cardioid mic.
For instance, try a Shure beta series mic instead of a plain ol' 58. Beta57A, Beta58A, or Beta 87A (condenser) are super cardioid, and will focus the vocals a little more. However monitor placement is important, because of the 180 degree pickup lobe. 120 degrees off axis is the null, so place the monitors off to the left or right a bit.
Pro: Tighter pickup pattern reduces bleed of all kinds.
Con: If the vocalist likes to move around a lot, they can get kind of washy as the singer moves on and off axis.

2. Adjust the stage plot.
Why vocalists insist on being directly in front of the drums, or why the drums have to be directly centered on stage is curious. Try moving things around to get the drums farther away from and off axis of critical mics. Remember that sound follows the inverted square law, which roughly says that doubling the distance of a microphone from a source of sound will decrease the sound pressure level at the mic by 6db.
I find it more visually appealing to have the drums on one side of the stage anyway. Others may agree. Most drummers don't play huge flashy kits and high flying cymbals anymore like they did in the 80's, and it's no longer necessary to have the kit as the visual centerpiece on stage.
Pro: Reduce bleed, create visual interest
Con: The drummer's ego needs to be in check. And this sometimes puts the kit near a second boundary causing weird reflections. If the stage is well treated with curtains or acoustic panels, this is not usually a problem. As for the drummer's ego, well, chicks don't care if the drummer is center stage or not. He's still an animal.

3. Coach the vocalist on mic technique.
The farther back from the mic they sing, the more of everthing else it will pick up. Not only does the singer's head block line of sight paths to the mic, getting closer to the mic increases the signal:bleed ratio. Remember the inverted square law? Increase vocal level by 6db SPL by halving the distance between the mic and the mouth. This will in turn push the bleed down by 6dbu, as you will need ~6db less gain on the preamp. Get it?
Pro: Hotter vocals on the way in, less need for amplification at the preamp, less bleed, more vocal detail
Con: The singer must stick to the the mic stand like glue, or learn to "work" a handheld mic properly and be conscious of their position on stage and their proximity to the louder sources of sound (monitors included). This benefits them though. Considering these factors makes their voice sound better. That's what they want anyway, right? You can play on singers' natural insecurities to help them appreciate learning the finer points of using microphones.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Nice!

Well, the problem is not the vocalists being off mic (unless you are leaving the BG singer's mic open when she is dancing?).

I had a similar issue with drum bleed on a lead vocal recently, but in my case the singer was all over the place. I had to heavily compress it, but of course that brought up the nasty drum bleed. The fix I used was to set an expander to pump down the same amount that I was reducing with the compressor. It sounded weird when solo'ed, but helped quite a bit with the drum bleed that was being brought up whenever the singer was not singing, and sounded fine in the context of the mix.

You could move the lead singer center stage - she is directly in front of the drummer here, though that might limit the movement of the other girl (or maybe the other girl is lead on other songs?).

Switching to beta58's for the singers might help (it won't be night and day, but it should reduce the level of sidewall reflections). That is a small stage - will this always be happening in the same venue?

My other thought was that the drummer is stuck in the corner there. Is it really the vocal mic bleed that's a problem, or is it the coloration in the overheads? If that's the case, maybe try a sidechaining a compressor on the overhead mic's set to be keyed by the snare mic. That should make it pop a little better.

Can't see what mic's you are using on the OH - those cymbals definitely make it tricky! You could try hypercards or even figure-8 on the overheads too (was just thinking it could be cool to try Eric Valentine's "underheads" technique here, but that might be going a bit far...). Are you close mic'ing the toms? If so, do you have them gated?

+1 on all of the above. You might also try lowering the vocal mic stands a little so the mics end up more vertical. When they get up on mic you will still get the proximity effect you need but they wont be pointing right at the kit.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

+1 on all of the above. You might also try lowering the vocal mic stands a little so the mics end up more vertical. When they get up on mic you will still get the proximity effect you need but they wont be pointing right at the kit.

And he could always go to a lighter stick or hot rods.