Concert and sound

[respirator]

I was at a great concert with Daniel Lanois yesterday. Music was great and it was so good to see such musical joy and no shitty attitudes on stage, but the thing that hit me was the sound. It was at a smallish venue (Vega in Copenhagen, 1500 standing) which usually have good sound, but yesterday it was stellar. The line up was drums, bass, and two guitars. Drums was miced with only overheads and kick and sounded stellar. Reminded me how annoying and overpowering the snare and hi-hat can be with a closed miced set. The guitars were both LP gold tops (Lanois' with Bigsby) to AC30 (couldn't see the models, but Lanois' looked like an old model and was perhaps miced with a ribbon?) and the bass a Fender Jazz Bass into an Ampeg stack. No fuss, just great sound - and not too loud.

[Improv]

Originally Posted by respirator

and not too loud.

I'm a self-professed concert-hater. Always dreaded the sound. The best concerts I've ever heard in my life were "quiet" ones.

[ctms777]

The fact that the venue usually sounds good might be a very good starting point. Most venues like to invest their money on gear (large consoles, tons of outboard) rather then treating the room acoustics.

The reason why concerts tend to sound very good is that the sound was probably already very balanced when the band was playing on stage. Most rockbands have Marshall (or similar) guitarstacks and Ampeg Bass-stacks at full blast. Now imagine what the drumoverheads are picking up? Almost the same as the vocal mics. The PA-mixer is then expected to make a decent balance and can only hope to make the best of it using close mics.

Mixing is easy as musicians play well (in tune for instance), dynamic and not too loud.

[I-Quality]

stage volume is a big problem indeed, sometimes over here the bass is so loud on stage that it covers everything and eats up all defeinition there could be...and knowing this happens quite often in the biggest venue over here still amazes me...

[respirator]

I think what really hit me was that very often musicians who play and record very well sounds crap on stage, disguised in too much volume. If the sound is well balanced it's often ruined by bad sound from the individual instruments, esp. snare and hihat sounding like crap and guitar sounding like some bad 80's transistor amp. Why do they (the musicians) put up with it? Why does the sound guys, the venue, the audience? I've started to walk out if sound's too loud or too bad. But maybe I'm getting old'n'grumpy?

A concert like yesterdays really puts things into perspective. Esp. the use of nothing but oh+kick on the drums to a rock concert.

(Is concerts somehow the equivalent to mp3's? Good music. Bad sound.)

[sismofyt]

i was at the 'same' concert friday, at train / århus. yes, it sounded real good and yes, the drums weren't too loud, they were perfect, thank you mr. FOH engineer. the AC30 was miced with one of those sennheisers dangling in front of the cab... at one point lanois offered to turn his amp (it was facing straight out to the audience) because someone in the front thought it was too loud .... how nice is that?! not many other performers think like that

both train and vega have state of the art gear, that helps . saw beck at vega some years ago .. it was not loud, intimate and rocking at the same time. i HATE blasting volumes and big concerts in general. never going to roskilde again, what rubbish concerts

lanois was / is INCREDIBLE

he had control over that axe like no-one... he's like a big child, very happy on stage and with an inner peace only topped by dalai lama ..

but they audience (the place was packed beyond good reason) was RUDE! couldn't stop chatting... even when he did some solo stuff on the steel guitar (from belladonna), they couldn't shut the **** up!! r

too many 50 year old ****** geetar musicians and they're bimbo wifes fuuck

they ended the concert with a 'da doo run run" medley

did the same danish girl / band do the support? nana jakobi, i think (?) thats was way cool too... 'deep pop' as she calls it

[sismofyt]

did you notice lanois used inear monitoring (one ear only)? i was upfront, the other monitoring cabs were not loud. i hate when you can hear them

i'm glad we finally have venues in denmark were they really thought about a good FOH spot. it's a joy to work at places like that

[respirator]

Originally Posted by sismofyt

did the same danish girl / band do the support? nana jakobi, i think (?) thats was way cool too... 'deep pop' as she calls it

You can't be serious She was more out of key than in and the guitarist was probably the worst I've ever seen on a stage, even counting my high school talent nights. It wouldn't even help to turn him off. His attitude was that of a helpless teenage boy caught naked in the middle of a busy street.

[sismofyt]

the drums were fully mic'd, shure on the kick, sm57 snare, senheiser clips to the two toms and two sm81 overheads. it sounded delicious .. probably not more than 12 / 13 mics, depending on what was on the basscab. i think it was DI. too bad, i luv the sound of that big ass ampeg rig

i really doubt the kit wasn't fully miced, are you sure? those clip mics can be hard to spot

[sismofyt]

Originally Posted by respirator

You can't be serious She was more out of key than in and the guitarist was probably the worst I've ever seen on a stage, even counting my high school talent nights. It wouldn't even help to turn him off. His attitude was that of a helpless teenage boy caught naked in the middle of a busy street.

she was definitely on key in århus. a lot of us (musicians / engineers) have talked about both concerts since friday... maybe she had a day off, happens to all of us. yeah, the guitarist wasn't a hot shot, but he was low in the mix, the music was dominated by drums and vocals. the drummer was GOOD and very diverse, he used brushes and those things you might use on a gong.. can't remmeber what they're called right now..

sounds like you saw a whole different band

[ctms777]

Haha, somehow it doesn't surprise me there were a lot of gearslutz at that concert. Mr Lanois is of course known to be very capable of getting a good sound.

I think inear monitoring is a godsend for livesound, the less volume/spill on a stage the better.

When you guys wonder about the bad stagesounds there's a sad but true reason for this-> "rockgod attitude";

A lot of "big name" rockbands simply refuse to let go of big rigs because of machismo. I must admit I myself are guilty of lugging two 4x12cabs on stage to try and overpower the other guitarplayer in my band. And yes, it does give you confidence when you're standing in front of a crowd.
Besides, rockmusicians (allthough they used to be progessive, when they invented it) are very conservative and everything high-tech is regarded very suspicious.

[sismofyt]

not gearslutz, just ****** musicians, that's talking about why he used that geetar and such.. .. there's place for those kinda talks and that is AFTER the concert!

it's funny with guitarist, they always want a shitload of gt in the monitors cabs.. same people who are totally anal about their rigs. everything sounds like shit coming of a monitor anyway...

mind you, i've done lotsa FOH for people who just lug along a fender/gibson and a AC30 / Fender combo and get killer sound. they're are always very pleasent to work with. big stacks = small dicks?

now, there is a place for dual or quad 4X12" stacks and 4x100W but it's not at small / moderate venues. if it doesn't sound great on stage it won't sound great at the audience spot

it's weird 'cause FOH rigs have become so much better in the last 10-20 years, some sound almost as nice a s big ass hifi rig, but you still get these lame FOH engineers who don't know jack. another thing is volume. i've stopped a couple of concerts simply because it's too loud.. i like it loud, but when half the audience got their fingers in their ears, the other half got plugs (including the performing musicians ), it's too much. some FOH engineers / bands just won't respect that. i couldn't give a flying ****. deafness / tinnitus is awfull, just awfull

yeah, inear is a god send

[DeepSpace]

Originally Posted by ctms777

... guitarstacks and Ampeg Bass-stacks at full blast. Now imagine what the drumoverheads are picking up? Almost the same as the vocal mics. The PA-mixer is then expected to make a decent balance and can only hope to make the best of it using close mics.

Yes, even relatively compact (and low power) amps can put out enough dBs to be a problem in many venues. I remember well from decades past when I did the occasional stint of live mixing.

If you are on FOH and you solo a mic channel in the cans and you can hear the lead guitar blasting thru the vocalist's mike at a level which is on a par with the vocalists voice, you know you have problems that nothing short of differential mic set-ups will ameliorate.

[ctms777]

yeah, inear is a god send
__________________
echo is a god send .... ... .. . .. ... ....

Funny, I must have picked up the words god sent from you, since I normally never use that expression.