Digital Board - Yay or Nay? Rack?

[NewfoundlandRec]

LS9 (16) is a great little board. Nothing else in that price range comes close.

The Roland M is decent, but slower to navigate... it does have a digital snake though, which is handy.

But I digress, for your budget, LS9(16) or save some pennies and get a SC48!

[jlaco]

Originally Posted by NewfoundlandRec

LS9 (16) is a great little board. Nothing else in that price range comes close.

The Roland M is decent, but slower to navigate... it does have a digital snake though, which is handy.

But I digress, for your budget, LS9(16) or save some pennies and get a SC48!

Just a few pennies eh?

[hbphotoav]

Nothing wrong with the mic amps in the PreSonus StudioLive series. For a quick listen to a rough mix from a live capture on (4) a cappella vocals, and a 17-piece big band, go to:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remot...mas-cheer.html

Even the mp3s sound great, in my not-so-humble opinion. But, then, the mics were pretty stellar (Neumann 582s and TLM193s, BeyerDynamic M500s, Sennheiser MKH8040s). I'd much rather hear these mics through the 24.4.2 than SM58s through a Gordon...

24 tracks of PreSonus 24.4.2, with live output through my small FOH rack (mainly for the Sabine Graphi-Q's Feedback Exterminator function) and RCF 322As over Mackie subs, with two wedge monitor sends (frontline/backline). Not the first hint of feedback through 10 acts ranging from a man (songwriter Danny Flowers) and his guitar to Vince Gill and friends in a swinging 10-piece country band, a mandolin "choir" and the aforementioned balls-to-the-wall big band, among others.

No... the XMAX on-boards are not Hardy or Gordon or Millennia. What they are is clean, quiet and completely usable in just about any live sound (and live sound tracking) situation. From your $5K console budget, spend $3K, get 24 channels (iPad/WiFi remote controllable), and spend the $2K you'll save on decent microphones... where you WILL actually hear a difference. Try to teach your music teacher about value. FWIW, I'd go with Beta 87a capsules before Beta 58. The 87s work better in more situations (especially where the user is 6-8" off the mic, or you're mic'ing an instrument) and have none of the Beta 58's overhyped LF from proximity effect with mic-eaters. One man's opinion... and I do own both. My Beta 58s get used only occasionally... the Beta 87a's a lot more frequently.

My $0.02US... with the caveat that I've been doing live sound and recording in situations very similar to yours for the past 15 years. And, yes, the StudioLive is, indeed, the best thing since sliced bread.

Is it a SC48 or a M7CL...? No... but what it is, is a killer console at a very affordable price point.

Here's a test for you... bring in a LS9 and a PreSonus for a head-to-head. Put them side-by-side. See which one sounds "better" (split the mic feed if you can). I can tell no difference, but, then, my LS9 hours are quite limited... I would be interested to know if you can, or not... and see which one has the better ("friendlier") user interface. My money says that, after 30 minutes on each, you'll love the 24.4.2 (especially the analog "feel" and the Fat Channel usability) and the LS9 will slink back to its shipping container.

HB

[rprecording]

I'd say the Studiolive is definitely worth considering...

I picked up a 16.4.2 about 6 months ago, used it several times for live FOH and recording. The more I used it the more I liked it. So much so that I got a 24.4.2 about 3 weeks ago and have used it for several jazz shows since then. Really like it. Extremely flexible, small footprint, very powerful. If you want an idea of how it sounds here's a few links to some tracks that I recorded at a few of the jazz shows...

From Russia With Love-Goldfinger-final by rprecording on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Come Together-final by rprecording on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

The tracks I've posted were recorded in a church, circa 1918, packed crowd...standing room only with the overflow room filled as well. The console provided FOH sound for the main room, 4 stage sends, a mono send that went to the overflow room and a stereo live mix that fed a video recorder. The multi track recordings were 18 chan's total (16 actual instrument chans and I also record the stereo mix going to the video cameras and an announcer mic chan).

The verb's and delays in the console are not superb but are entirely usable and provide a good range of fx. Completely acceptable for live sound and, in a pinch, I'd use them for recording too. They would certainly work fine for use in headphones in a studio setting. One cool aspect of the board is that both of the fx proc's can be sent to any of the outputs (main outs, sub's, any aux send, and levels of the fx can be independently adjusted to any of these out's (ie... I can send a little more verb to the singers stage monitor that I do to the main's etc...)

Both the 16.4.2 and the 24.4.2 include built in 32 band graphic eq's (8 of them) that can be assigned to the Main outs and the aux sends (for ringing out house sound and stage mon's). I would build console setups prior to shows, hook up the laptop at the show and drag/drop the "scene's onto the console and it's all set. It really was brilliant...made the setup very fast and easy.

The driver's for computer hookup seem to be quite robust though I've not tested them in extreme setups. The shows I did were recorded to laptop using a buffer setting of 1024. I dont recall the latency that Cubase reported but I do recall that it would not have been usable if I was trying to simultaneously monitor stuff from Cubase (latencies probably up in the 30+ms round trip range...). I can tell you that at this buffer setting I was recording 18 chans at 48k and had no hicups at all. Completely clean.

I did select some lower buffer setting in the studio and recall that at settings of 256, the latencies looked like they would be usable (probably couldn't wrap fx in the DAW back out to a studio headphone send but in that environment you could just use the built in fx of the console for studio headphone mix).

The one thing that takes some getting used to (common to digital mixers) is that you dont have full chan strips for all input...thus if you grab for the compressor threshold knob and start tweaking to get the bass tightened up...but dont hear what you expected, you might discover that you've just changed the threshold setting you had perfectly tuned in for the kick drum.. In other words, you have to SELECT the chan you want to work on BEFORE you tweak chan settings. Takes a little getting used to if you're used to working on an analog board.

In sum, the more I use the console the more I like it. It's like having a rack full of gear along with the console. I had been using rack mounted mic pre's with RME interfaces etc...into both my laptop and an Alesis HD24XR... still have that rig and will probably keep it but increasingly I see myself just taking the Studiolive with me for most recording job's.

[cheu78]

Originally Posted by jlaco

My school has a $20000 budget on new sound gear. We currently have an A&H GL2000, with a broken pair of JBL FOH's, and 4 AT Wireless Mics. We are getting all new speakers, amps, subs, and s.mons from a local audio technician for a good price ($6000) The music teacher wants to spend at LEAST $5k on a board alone. So what should we do?

I was originally thinking the StudioLive 16.4.2 but starting to lean away from it, hearing that the pre's are not so good. Then we got a few recomendations on the LS9 (16), O1v, and O2r. But the lack of XLR in's on the O1v/O2r is what is killing me. We will rarely need more than 16 channels. I would really love to get a good digital board instead of getting an analog, then loading a rack up with comps and fx. Just for cleanliness sake. We are getting a Beta58/SLX wireless system with 4 mics. What do you pro's think we should do for a board?

I'm an old analog fart, so I'd choose an analog board.. If you don't want/need too many channels, try to figure out a small ADT mixer..
Btw an old Soundcraft 8000, or MH2 or 3, or a DDA CS8 or even the old Midas Venice 240 will be a huge step up from the digital Yammie's (and probably even Presonus) soundwise speaking and you could find them at a fraction of the costs (hook up a couple of comps like the summit audio TLA-50, some dbx and some eq for the monitors, a TC 4000 and a delay and you're all set), even if with every of the aforementioned boards you could run the show..

(Midas just came out with the new VeniceF, which you could hook up directly with a pc, but I never used it and it's too new to tell how reliable it is yet).

But I understand that a digital board is very convenient and might be a godsend for certain productions/live acts..

If I have to go for a live digital board I'd get a Digico.. They have the new SD11 which is very small and it's not too expensive all considered..if budget is an issue get it without digital snake.. It sounds great and it's very easy to work on..
I know it costs more than the Yammie counterpart, but the difference is huge, in both sound and easiness of operation, quality of the materials used.. Let alone flexibility.. (have you ever worked on these cramped yammie screens??)

Also regarding the wireless mics, I'd get the Beyerdynamics instead of the Shure's.. I've worked with both and there's no contest IMHO.. The beyer sounds better and the receivers are better build.. (The AT are fine IMO, and also better than Shure wireless mics).

Just my 0.02$,

Cheu

[M4-10]

What kind of school is this?

I use the Presonus StudioLive and the LS9 frequently.

StudioLive: Really easy to use.
Sounds good.
Record all channels to a laptop in about 3 mouse clicks.
iPad app.
Graphs on every aux (with the latest firmware).

LS9: Annoyingly non-intuitive.
Twice as many channels for the same size (if you buy a stage box).
Lots of graphs that you can assign.
More FX parameters.
Automated faders.
iPad app.

If you have a dedicated user that has time to train on it and will stick around for awhile, the LS9 is more powerful. You can save scenes (for theatre or for multiple band set-ups) and it will snap to saved values. I personally think it's a really hard to use console, and not for beginners.

If you will have multiple operators who don't have the time to dedicate to it, the StudioLive will be a LOT friendlier. I love this mixer. Recording shows is so easy. Workflow is very intuitive. Unlike the LS9, I can see the gain knobs all at the same time. It costs quite a bit less.

Unless this is a school training live sound operators destined to use the LS9 in the workforce, I would recommend the Presonus!

[Murton]

I own an LS9-16 so what I say will come with an amount of bias but it also comes with an amount of experience having used it a lot over a few years now. I haven't used the Presonus but have seen them a few times and had a little fiddle around with them in the shop and have researched what they can can.

That said, the LS9 sits in a catagory above the Presonus when it comes to digital mixers. The presonus is almost an analogue console but with a digital interface when it comes to work flow. You don't have flying faders or scene recall in the same league compared to the LS9. I think full recall and more chanels in a small footprint is one of the main advantages of digital consoles. I can have a 32 channel mixer in a rack or even add a ethersound stagebox on stage in less footprint than the Presonus offerings.

The studiolive is made by presonus. The LS9 is made by Yamaha. The track record when it comes to reliability, customer service and warranty etc by respective companies has a very big difference. Yamaha offer a much longer warranty period and have a much longer history in digital consoles. Presonus to my knowledge have no history in making digital consoles. Reliability wise I have never had a problem in operation when it comes to my LS9, no lock ups, no reboots needed. I went to the RODE factory in Sydney for a tour and there were four Studiolive's sitting there waiting for repair. To quote the conversation with Peter Freedman "P:Really good consoles these M:So why are they here for repair? P:... Moving on".

Sound quality, being newer the presonus will have the advantage here, they will have much better converters and pres, converters and pres have dropped in price by a lot in the last few years. That said, the LS9 has extensive EQ with two types of EQ and two dynamic processors on all input channels, one on every aux and output channel. You can choose from gates, compressors, expanders, companders, duckers etc A lot of options when inout control. I think the presonus has a gate and compressor on each channel, so not as flexible as the LS9 but still taking advantage of digital's DSP offering.

The Yamaha has four SP2000's inside, no slouch when it comes to effects, which are leagues above what presonus has included.

Usability, the LS9 has a steep learning curve, there are still things I haven't used yet which pretty much keeps you exploring and trying new things. The studiolive it much more analogue friendly in terms of layout and function. Same task, two different ways of using the consoles, neither particularly better than the other, just different.

Here's where the LS9 rises above the studio live, recall, full recall and recall safe features makes mixing bands throughout the night much easier, the headliner soundchecks, their settings are saved and then can be fully recalled when they come to play.A theatre production does a full sound rehearsal, the engineers make up scenes with mute groups and levels set, the show turns into simple scene changes to handle what channels are active.

And then there's sections like the monitor section on the LS9 with local monitor control, noise generator and such. The channel job section is what makes digital worth it. Channel linking, mute groups, channel move, channel copy etc these make your life so much easier, link all your channel faders, nudge them down and bring your master back to unity and get your gain staging right in the zone, link stereo source channels, link drums, link your vocals, manage mute groups, mute your FX returns between songs, mute your channels between bands and unmute background music, move channels to more friendly logical positions in terms of your favourite mixing positions if things get repatched or they are patched differently on stage, no more unplugging local i/o if a patch changes, you can just change a channel's input or copy the channel's settings bar input to another channel, added another tom? copy a tom channel setting to a next channel so you have a starting point in three button presses. Copy paste EQ or dynamic settings, I use this all the time, when a vocal mic goes down and the singer changes to the backup and the EQ is different or I've made some cuts specific to that singer, I can copy it across. I only have to setup one compressor for toms, then copy it across and then set the threshold for each channel.

The only thing I wish this console had was DCA's, which is a bit much to ask for in a console at this price point.

The LS9 is much more of a pro console in a different price point. You'd expect people with training and experience to use an LS9 where a studiolive is aimed at a different target market.

[hbphotoav]

Great report... mainly it shows these are pretty much apples-to-oranges comparisons. If the OP has $8-9K to spend for a 24- or 32-channel LS9, and the school has the will and the wherewithal to purchase, set up and train an operator or three... seems like a fine choice. If they're looking closer to $5K... mmm... not so much. And, if the users are students (or other volunteers) likely to be long on enthusiasm and not so good with the steep learning curve (and the potential to wind up in not-so-good places in mission-critical situations)... well, then.

I'll be really interested to know just where they do end up. Our integration of a 24.4.2 into a dedicated IEM (10 mix) controller, with onstage iPad control in a HOW environment (band members are all volunteer, 4 of 5 "regular" FOH guys are, as well... and I'm part-time), has been less difficult that I had anticipated, with zero mission-critical crash-and-burn through the curve. The ability to control each mix from FOH if there were problems with the iPads (firmware and software updates cured most of that... and a dedicated secure WiFi net cured the rest) was brilliant.

So... different strokes.

HB

[audibell]

I've worked on an LS9 and the 24.4.2. I'm not considering buying the Yamaha. I predict the 24ch PreSonus will be replacing the ubiquitous MixWizard for the next few years. Bigger houses might invest in an Ls9 or a Midas but the far larger small venue market will opt for the PreSonus at under $3000 because it does so much at that price. I don't disagree that the LS9 is a fine bit of kit but your kids will probably have more opportunity to work the StudioLives in winebars and churches.

Add a Drive rack, two dbx graphics and a snake and you're done for less than $5k. The JBLs/Crowns will cost you more, of course, but if your audio budget's $10k, the Presonus will let any soundcrittur do foh and monitors, with or without an iPad, scene recalls; non-motorised faders are recalled by manually matching the meter nulls - that's a couple $thousand off the MSRP - trims are still set manually but everything else is electronic and automatic.

I don't know what the MTBF and repair rates are but I'm going to find out. Digital either works or it doesn't - no operator repairables inside - so having a robust after-market warranty is a must for any digital board.

I had to change a channel in a Millennia pre recently. They sent me a new board, I removed the bad one, switched two edge plugs and soldered three wires - back in business and sent the bad one back - total cost about 100 bucks. If the whole StudioLive has to be shipped to Baton Rouge, not so good. If faulty modules can be switched easily & locally, then digital will supplant analog in the small venues. But graphic EQs on the monitors are still a good idea.
best rgds
WalterT

[M4-10]

Originally Posted by audibell

But graphic EQs on the monitors are still a good idea.

The StudioLive 24.4.2 and 16.4.2 (but not the 16.0.2) both have graphic EQs on the main left, main right, and each auxiliary send. This happened with a firmware update a couple months ago.

[king2070lplaya]

Im not sure how long a digital board like the studiolive would last in many of the clubs I used to play in. Some of the live boards in those spots were jacked up and still working, usually minus a channel or two. Not sure how a board that relies on a computer to function would hold up in those "standard" small club situations.

[tmfcovers]

If you don't have a demand for too many wireless systems running simultaneously, I've heard very good things about Line 6's digital wireless. I have no experience with wireless; I just thought I'd mention it. But it makes sense: digital wireless isn't susceptible to noise or interference because of the fundamental differences from analog, and it has better dynamic range. Plus, it's simpler to operate because you don't need to set the gain on the transmitter and you don't need to set up a squelch or anything. I've done a lot of research, so despite my lack of experience, I have an idea of what I'm talking about.

[audibell]

You are correct. The original poster asked users to report if all-singing, all-dancing digital boards allowed ditching all the usual outboard rack gear and my point is, although the PreSonus supports 8 mono GEQs on any of the L/R Mains, 4subs and 10 aux/monitors, live sound is a tactile art and being able to reach out and tweak feedback promptly is likely to remain a useful skill, especially if the ears already recognise which slider to pull down. Remembering which select button to activate, fat channel, aux or GEQ, right graphic? then twiddle a controller while the howl gets worse...

So I do recommend keeping 2 stereo graphics in the rig for wedge monitors - I don't think beginners should be in charge of in-ear mixes, which is another subject.
rgds,
WalterT

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by jlaco

My school has a $20000 budget on new sound gear. We currently have an A&H GL2000, with a broken pair of JBL FOH's, and 4 AT Wireless Mics. We are getting all new speakers, amps, subs, and s.mons from a local audio technician for a good price ($6000) The music teacher wants to spend at LEAST $5k on a board alone. So what should we do?

I was originally thinking the StudioLive 16.4.2 but starting to lean away from it, hearing that the pre's are not so good. Then we got a few recomendations on the LS9 (16), O1v, and O2r. But the lack of XLR in's on the O1v/O2r is what is killing me. We will rarely need more than 16 channels. I would really love to get a good digital board instead of getting an analog, then loading a rack up with comps and fx. Just for cleanliness sake. We are getting a Beta58/SLX wireless system with 4 mics. What do you pro's think we should do for a board?

It kinda depends on what you're using it for - recommendations don't mean anything until you define your requirements.

If you're doing theatrical productions where you need scene recall, an SL isn't going to cut it. As pointed out earlier, if you've got multiple users of varying skill levels, the LS9 is going to be a ball-buster. The SC48 could be way overkill or it could be perfect.

-Dan.