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A few jazz tracks from recent shows.....
Old 17th December 2011
  #1
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
Talking A few jazz tracks from recent shows.....

Been doing a series of jazz shows over the last few months. Done in a local church. Building dates back to around 1918 or so. Beautiful little place, high ceilings, relatively small...around 40' x 70' or so.

Usually a quartet, some rotation of different musicians on a few shows. The musicians are grouped very tightly, with a Yamaha C4 grand, bassist (usually acoustic but occaisionally playing electric...in both cases, he plugs into his own head/cabinet that's just behind him), drummer and sax/wind player.

Had recently picked up a Presonus studiolive console that I've been using (I'm doing both FOH and recording). I really like the console, very flexible, small footprint, real good sound and it's been a great audio interface to my laptop.

Here's a few tracks from some recent shows...

From Russia With Love-Goldfinger-final by rprecording on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Come Together-final by rprecording on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

The system I'm using is Presonus Studiolive 24.4.2. Firewire out of that into an ADK 7600 laptop. Recording with both the Presonus Capture software and Cubase...been using Cubase lately since that's what I edit with so it's easier to go direct into that).

The direct out's from the console run through a 24 chan mogami snake that I built into an Alesis HD24xr which serves as backup recorder (saved me a few times).

Mic's have generaqlly been as follows...
Pair of AT4033's on piano, a lav is also tucked in there and used for house sound (small room, speakers very close, the AT's dont get me enough gain before feedback so they're used only for recording).

Bass is a DI and a Shure SM81 pointed towards the f hole, about 1ft away. Tracks are time aligned and the mic chan is the primary source...DI adds some string and bite to it.

On drums jazz purists will probably attack me but I take a mixed pop/jazz approach with an Audix D6 on kick, i5 on snare top and bottom, a Sennheiser e914 on HH and, most recently, a pair of Oktava mc012's as overheads. I do use the OH's as primary source but blend in a little discreet kick/snare/hat as needed.

Sax get's an AT clip on mic (mostly for house sound) and generally an SM57 in front. I mix both in the recordings but find that the clip on, while cleaner/less bleed, just doesn't get the same body/warmth that the 57 does. Blended together they work pretty well (although it presents some phasing issues as the sax player moves around a litttle).

FOH involves house sound in the room( really just reinforcement of the piano, sometimes vocals and occasionally bringing up the bass a little during his solo sections), usually 4 stage monitor feeds, a mono feed to an overflow room and a stereo mix for video. Recording is generally about 16 tracks.
Old 7th January 2012
  #2
Shark Sandwich
 
recordinghopkins's Avatar
Sounds nice!
I've been considering a Studiolive for a few months now. Tell me, can you use the hardware inserts on mix down from firewire returns? How about the direct outputs? Regarding the direct outs, I am assuming they are straight off the preamp, so any digital glitches that may eventually happen would only show themselves on the firewire send and not on the backup recorder. Any loud fans?
Old 8th January 2012
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins View Post
Sounds nice!
I've been considering a Studiolive for a few months now. Tell me, can you use the hardware inserts on mix down from firewire returns? How about the direct outputs? Regarding the direct outs, I am assuming they are straight off the preamp, so any digital glitches that may eventually happen would only show themselves on the firewire send and not on the backup recorder. Any loud fans?
With the single firewire cable attached, there is a button on each chan strip that you can press that will route the track from the computer, back to the chan input for mixdown. I would imagine that plugging something into a chan strip insert would break that feed from the firewire connection but I'm not certain and dont have the board or books in front of me.

The direct outs are DB25 connectors on the back of the board. My understanding is that they are tapped right after the mic pre's and, thus, would not suffer any possible digital glitches. One consideration is that the board does not provide any wordclock out so using it as a central digital synchronizer is impossible. In my setup this is not an issue since I dont want the backup recorder to be dependent on anything. Just feed it audio and let it run in a fully standalone mode.

Because I use the HD24XR as backup recorder, I run the HD24 (and the laptop) at 48k. Reason for this is that the HD24's clock is not exactly accurate at 44.1 but it is at 48k. Thus, if I ever need to drop parts in from the HD24 backup, so long as I record everything at 48k everything a perfect match...timewise.
Old 9th January 2012
  #4
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

From the manual:

"Pre-Insert Balanced Direct Outputs. These are the balanced, direct analog outputs for the 24 channels. The DB25 connectors divide the channels into three groups of eight. Balanced DB25 fan-out snakes can be obtained in various configurations at most recording and live-sound retailers.
Common fan-outs are DB25 to (8) XLRM and DB25 to (8) TRS. These outputs are post-gain, pre-insert, and pre-A/D converter. Only the microphone preamps and line- level inputs are available through the direct outputs. The FireWire returns cannot be patched to the direct outputs. (See Section 6.4.2 for more information.)"

Every time I track through my 24.4.2, I use three DB25->TRS fans to back up to a HD24 at 48kHz. Works like a champ. Early HDD problems (500GB Hitachi 7200rpm in OWC FW housings... the 320GB Toshibas I replaced them with have been flawless) were salvaged by the backup. Worth every penny.
Old 10th January 2012
  #5
Shark Sandwich
 
recordinghopkins's Avatar
You know, as long as there is little fear of the studiolive just completely taking a dive, this could be a very useful way to lighten my load. 24 h e a v y preamps, a masterlink (I capture my headphone FB for the client to leave with a reference mix - with my solos and mutes and all, just how I heard it), a presonus firestudio lightpipe, and an HD24xr, all in a large rolling shock rack. It's killling me with weight. I've gotta pare it down so I can go back to one man gigs and not need an A2 for load in and out. As it is, I put everything on the reliability of my HD24, so letting it ride on the Studiolive's ability to keep the preamps working shouldn't be too much of a problem for me, IF it's reliable. How many times have you guys power cycled these devices, ball park?

EDIT:
I suppose if the whole thing is riding on the Studiolive, there's not much sense in multing the DB25 outputs to two HD24 decks, is there?

I'm listening to Come Together right now, and thoroughly enjoying it!
Old 10th January 2012
  #6
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
From the manual:

"Pre-Insert Balanced Direct Outputs. These are the balanced, direct analog outputs for the 24 channels. The DB25 connectors divide the channels into three groups of eight. Balanced DB25 fan-out snakes can be obtained in various configurations at most recording and live-sound retailers.
Common fan-outs are DB25 to (8) XLRM and DB25 to (8) TRS. These outputs are post-gain, pre-insert, and pre-A/D converter. Only the microphone preamps and line- level inputs are available through the direct outputs. The FireWire returns cannot be patched to the direct outputs. (See Section 6.4.2 for more information.)"

Every time I track through my 24.4.2, I use three DB25->TRS fans to back up to a HD24 at 48kHz. Works like a champ. Early HDD problems (500GB Hitachi 7200rpm in OWC FW housings... the 320GB Toshibas I replaced them with have been flawless) were salvaged by the backup. Worth every penny.
I've been running Some Western Digital and Seagate drives in the HD24. Using SATA converter caddies. Various drive sizes. All have worked flawlessly.

I had a length of Mogami multicore snake so I just built my own DB25 to TRS snake to run from the Studiolive to the HD24.

Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins View Post
You know, as long as there is little fear of the studiolive just completely taking a dive, this could be a very useful way to lighten my load. 24 h e a v y preamps, a masterlink (I capture my headphone FB for the client to leave with a reference mix - with my solos and mutes and all, just how I heard it), a presonus firestudio lightpipe, and an HD24xr, all in a large rolling shock rack. It's killling me with weight. I've gotta pare it down so I can go back to one man gigs and not need an A2 for load in and out. As it is, I put everything on the reliability of my HD24, so letting it ride on the Studiolive's ability to keep the preamps working shouldn't be too much of a problem for me, IF it's reliable. How many times have you guys power cycled these devices, ball park?

EDIT:
I suppose if the whole thing is riding on the Studiolive, there's not much sense in multing the DB25 outputs to two HD24 decks, is there?

I'm listening to Come Together right now, and thoroughly enjoying it!
The Studiolive will send all 24 tracks to the HD24 via direct outs but I also have a laptop attached via firewire. Thats my primary and I will record the 24 individual chanells but you can also send other stuff to the laptop at the same time...such as the main outs, or any of the aux's or sub's. When I did the jazz show, since I had a stereo mix that I would send, independently, to a video camera, I would record that on the laptop and use that stereo pair to burn CD's for the musicians at the end of the show.

Not a superb mix...headphones...live show, couldn't constantly monitor the mix etc.... but gave them enough to take something home that night. If you had a full mix going out the mains, you could record that as a stereo pair to an attached computer and use that like you do the Masterlink, or, build a mix and send it out a pair of the subgroups and record that as a stereo rough mix. One advantage is that modern laptops can burn cd copies quite a bit faster than the Masterlink.

Glad you're liking the tracks. We also did a Herbie Hancock tribute night as well as a Motown night, Classical Jazz, Dueling Paino's and a Christmas show. Still working on mixdowns of those shows but they'll be available soon.

We have the first album available if you're interested. You can buy/download it at...

Reference Point Recording - JV2011

You can hear previews of all the tracks there.
Old 19th January 2012
  #7
Shark Sandwich
 
recordinghopkins's Avatar
So I got the SL24, based in part on feedback from gearslutz that own one.
Only 26 tracks show up in Capture. What am I doing wrong? PT 10 works with all 32 firewire sends.


I'm listening again to your recordings, what a pleasure!
Old 20th January 2012
  #8
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins View Post
So I got the SL24, based in part on feedback from gearslutz that own one.
Only 26 tracks show up in Capture. What am I doing wrong? PT 10 works with all 32 firewire sends.


I'm listening again to your recordings, what a pleasure!
I'm guessing it's because you've not assigned any busses to the additional firewire sends.

You'll need to assign the busses you want to record from the VSL window. Look on page 66 of the manual (section 6.4.2-Firewire sends and returns) and also on page 85, section 7.2.6. These show you the VSL window where you can assign the additional busses.

Glad you're enjoying the tracks.
Old 20th January 2012
  #9
Shark Sandwich
 
recordinghopkins's Avatar
That's where I started, and I assigned a variety of busses and proved to myself that audio can be passed successfully with another DAW, but the capture software just doesn't see those inputs for some reason. I assume that they should all be showing up automatically, no? I read and googled till my eyes hurt from staring at a computer screen.
Thanks for the use of your thread for my questions! How about some more music?
Old 21st January 2012
  #10
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins View Post
That's where I started, and I assigned a variety of busses and proved to myself that audio can be passed successfully with another DAW, but the capture software just doesn't see those inputs for some reason. I assume that they should all be showing up automatically, no? I read and googled till my eyes hurt from staring at a computer screen.
Thanks for the use of your thread for my questions! How about some more music?
Hmmm...I know I've done this recording into Cubase but not sure I tried it with capture. I'll try it tomorrow when I'm at the studio and see if I have any better luck.

Re..music...just about done with mixes from the Herbie Hancock tribute night. I'll post some links in the next few days.
Old 23rd January 2012
  #11
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Thread Starter
Hey, sorry but I got busy and haven't had a chance to try getting additional tracks into Capture yet. Hope to get to that tomorrow. Until then, how bout a few more tracks from the next jazz concert CD???

Olliloqui Valley by rprecording on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Tell Me A Bedtime Story by rprecording on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

These are a trio performance. Setup was as follows...

Drums: Oktava MC012's as overheads, Audix D6 on kick, Audix i5 on top/bottom snare, Sennheiser e914 on HH

Bass: Acoustic bass with piezo pickup-Direct/line out from bass amp, Shure SM81 about 1 ft away, pointed at f hole

Key's: Yamaha c4 grand-AT4033's (x2), over high and low registers. Also had AT lav but that was only used for house sound. Elec key's on "Tell Me A Bedtime Story" are from a Logic electric piano patch run through a "Motion Sound" cabinet (mentioned in a previous post...I included a link). Stereo outs from the Motion Sound run to board.

All chan's run to Presonus Studiolive 24.4.2>firewire to ADK laptop, recorded into Cubase 4.5. Backup recorder via Studiolive direct out's to Alesis HD24xr. Mixed ITB on Cubase 4.5 using various Waves plug's.

Hope you enjoy them.
Old 23rd January 2012
  #12
Shark Sandwich
 
recordinghopkins's Avatar
Very nice!
I'd like to hear a little less DI on the bass, but that's just me. It seems to rob some of low fundamentals. Piano sounds gorgeous!
I look forward to comparing the HD24xr to the SL24. It should be easy to just drop in the files, save as a new session, and print again.

Thanks for sharing!
Old 23rd January 2012
  #13
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Thread Starter
I guess you've discovered something... Hooked up the SL, brought up VSL, went to setup and assigned all sorts of stuff to the additional buss's....brought up capture and all it will talk to appears to be the chan strips and buss's 17/18 (on the sl 16.4.2) or buss's 25/26 on the sl24.

Cant find anyway to add additional chan's. I guess it's just intended to be the simplest arrangement possible. Something to be said for that I guess.

Glad you like the tracks. Re... the bass... on the first CD tracks I'd decided that I had the low fundamentals of the bass just a touch loud. Planning on remixing them and bringing down the low bass (below about 80hz) by 1.5 db or so. That thought affected the mix on the new tracks. Perhaps I brought it down a touch too much. Maybe I'll split the diff.

Thanks for the feedback.
Old 23rd January 2012
  #14
Shark Sandwich
 
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Thanks,
I just wanted to make sure it wasn't me!!
I had planned to use PT anyway, but capture looks cool for when I don't care to record more than just the mix bus +24. It would have been nice to send the Effect returns to a new FW channel though. Bummer.
Old 24th January 2012
  #15
Gear nut
 

Thread Starter
I would have sworn that Capture could be config'd to record the additional buss' but, like you, I cant find any way to do it.

One thing to be aware of if you're going to use Capture but then edit in another DAW.

When I first got the SL, I was using Capture as a quick and dirty recording system. After the show, I would take my external hard drive, hook it up to the studio machine and just directly import the tracks from the Capture session folder into Cubase's audio pool. Seemed reasonable enough as the files in the Capture folder were all 24 bit wav files etc. And this seemed to work fine.

A few weeks ago I recorded a school Christmas Concert. One of the song's had an intro section that had a long, held, low frequency pipe organ note. Lasted for some 60 seconds or so.

Used Capture to record, got back to the studio and imported the wav files over to Cubase. Started paying back that song and had a distinct artifact in the sound of that low freq pipe organ note. It was kind of like a repeated thumping effect (try to imagine a phase shifting type of sound but the phase shift isn't cyclical and you never get a "hollowed out" sound, just places in which signals are in phase and you hear a momentary rise in total level).

Dont know how else to describe it but there was no missing it. I tried everything but could not get rid of it and determined that it was inherent in the track (not cyclical but when I would hear this "beat" it would be at the exact same time point, and I could rewind and hear it there again and again). I was almost to the point of thinking that track was un-usable.

As a last ditch effort, I re-opened the Capture session and manually exported all of the tracks from Capture (Capture's automatic "export all tracks" function has never worked for me).

Once I actually exported the tracks, I then pulled them into the same Cubase project and, lo and behold, no more beating effect. Sounded fine.

I have no idea why I was getting this but it was definately there if I just imported the wav files directly into Cubase and gone so long as I first "exported" the tracks from Capture, then imported/drag and drop them into Cubase.

The last curious thing about it was that I never heard this effect in any of the other Capture session's I had recorded, only this one. The caveat being that this was the first case in which I had a 45+ second continuous low frequency pipe organ note playing.

This, plus my normal workflow (record live then transfer tracks to Cubase for editing/mixing) has led me to generally just record directly into Cubase.

Capture is still handy if I need to just track fast and simple and I've had no operational problems with it. It's been very solid.
Old 25th January 2012
  #16
Shark Sandwich
 
recordinghopkins's Avatar
curious......
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