CLASSICAL EDITING-- the actual cutting

[sonare]

Thinking that the originator of the other Classical Editing thread might need some nut&bolts info--

I would find it VERY hard to work in a DAW that did not have source /destination editing plus a crossfade window that allowed you to vary the length and shape of the fades. Being able to move the fades independently is a plus-- especially when cutting on a "dead" room.

The big advantage of SD is the "insert and ripple" function where it automatically adjusts for the fact taht what you are inserting (with the right notes) is rarely EXACTLY the same duration as what it is replacing.

The "big four" (SADiE, Sequoia, Pyramix, and SoundBlade) are the only DAWs that have this feature (since Sonic Solutions is long dead). There may be others I don't know about. And features like X-fade and S/D is why that software starts at around $4k and goes up depending on the cards that come with it.

I am told that it is possible to mimic S/D in others-- but the X-fade window is really what makes it possible to say that NO edit is impossible-- assuming the right notes can be found.

Rich

[rumleymusic]

Sonoma Also has this feature. It is so different than how I edit, I have never been able to get behind it.

I have never had a problem with standard editing. The trick for me is organization of all the takes and a good track layer system.

[boojum]

Samplitude, Sequoia's kid brother, also has those killer crossfades in it. I love them.

[Zem]

Originally Posted by boojum

Samplitude, Sequoia's kid brother, also has those killer crossfades in it. I love them.

If my memories are right samplitude does not have the complete crossfades editor, i.e. you can't see the actual waveform of the audio in that window.

An option that's made sequoia worth it (and the four point editing, and the DDP export...) !

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Zem

If my memories are right samplitude does not have the complete crossfades editor, i.e. you can't see the actual waveform of the audio in that window.

An option that's made sequoia worth it (and the four point editing, and the DDP export...) !

No, you can see the waveform, and select the type of waveform, too.

[Ozpeter]

I guess we all make the best of the tools to hand, and adjust how we work accordingly. Which is not to say that one tool might not be more efficient than another, and thus time saving. Though sometimes having a wide range of adjustments makes you spend more time fiddling with them perhaps unnecessarily? Thinking aloud...

[studer58]

I think it exists now (or if not, might in the near future) in REAPER also....which costs around $60 if you purchase the licensed version ! See the issue linked here: Source-Destination Editing - Cockos Confederated Forums and here: Arrangement Split view for (4-point) editing - Cockos Confederated Forums

If you'd like to chime in with some implementation hints, based on your knowledge of working systems such as Sequoia , Sadie, Pyramix et al, I'm sure the REAPER forum folks would appreciate input REAPER always has (and remains) very much a 'from the ground upwards' developer base, with "feature requests" making their way into the program updates when they're refined and bug free, with lots of input from everyday users.

[Ifrit]

I would find it VERY hard to work in a DAW that did not have source /destination editing plus a crossfade window that allowed you to vary the length and shape of the fades. Being able to move the fades independently is a plus-- especially when cutting on a "dead" room.

The big advantage of SD is the "insert and ripple" function where it automatically adjusts for the fact taht what you are inserting (with the right notes) is rarely EXACTLY the same duration as what it is replacing.

Thank you! My thoughts exactly.

The "big four" (SADiE, Sequoia, Pyramix, and SoundBlade) are the only DAWs that have this feature (since Sonic Solutions is long dead).

soundBlade IS modern days' Sonic Solutions. Same people, same ideology, same bugs...

And features like X-fade and S/D is why that software starts at around $4k and goes up depending on the cards that come with it.

Pyramix Native about 1000 for Broadcast Pack, if you need just basic functionality. There's SADiE Native as well, but I don't know anything about price. soundBlade is about 1700USD, if memory serves.

[Ozpeter]

I think it exists now (or if not, might in the near future) in REAPER also.

I'm glad that some hardy souls are still working on it there - if only to provide a working example for the Reaper developers to provide a built in system. I did some work on it way back (under the name Art Evans) and although it was coming along quite well, it felt too much like a workaround so I never completed it. And I'm simply not doing enough editing these days to provide the personal impetus. (Why say "motivation" when two words would do?!)

[sonare]

Originally Posted by studer58

I think it exists now (or if not, might in the near future) in REAPER also....which costs around $60 if you purchase the licensed version ! See the issue linked here: Source-Destination Editing - Cockos Confederated Forums and here: Arrangement Split view for (4-point) editing - Cockos Confederated Forums

If you'd like to chime in with some implementation hints, based on your knowledge of working systems such as Sequoia , Sadie, Pyramix et al, I'm sure the REAPER forum folks would appreciate input REAPER always has (and remains) very much a 'from the ground upwards' developer base, with "feature requests" making their way into the program updates when they're refined and bug free, with lots of input from everyday users.

If they want to see how these all work-- they COULD buy them!

And if it were possible to import WAV files into Reaper-- I might have bought it as a "standby" DAW.

RIch

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

I guess we all make the best of the tools to hand, and adjust how we work accordingly. Which is not to say that one tool might not be more efficient than another, and thus time saving. Though sometimes having a wide range of adjustments makes you spend more time fiddling with them perhaps unnecessarily? Thinking aloud...

Possibly-- but I bought Seq without fully appreciating that there are always at least two or three ways to accomplish anything in audio manipulation that I can imagine. I would not ahve ever dreamed of some of this stuff without seeing it in action-- so I would not be trying to do a workaround.

For me-- being able to generate a DDP fileset and KNOW that the manufactured CD will be a bit-perfect copy is great peace of mind.

Rich

[studer58]

Originally Posted by sonare

And if it were possible to import WAV files into Reaper-- I might have bought it as a "standby" DAW.

RIch

You mean it's not...... ??

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by sonare

And if it were possible to import WAV files into Reaper-- I might have bought it as a "standby" DAW.

RIch

Dear Rich,
I must be missing something. It's quite possible to work with WAV files in Reaper. I do it every time I use the application, which is now and then.
Otherwise I'm happy in the sequoia camp

[studer58]

Originally Posted by JonesH

Dear Rich,
I must be missing something. It's quite possible to work with WAV files in Reaper. I do it every time I use the application, which is now and then.
Otherwise I'm happy in the sequoia camp

Same here, every time I stick an SD card containing wav's into the PC and import them into Reaper, a 5 second operation.

[Petrus]

I have also been importing WAVs to Reaper (V3 and V4) for a long time without knowing it was not possible...

V4 is supposed to be able to generate DDP folders also, but I have not tested that yet.

Not bad for a $60 DAW.

[GIACOMO-_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh-j3jblSfQ

[sonare]

All I can say is that I tried to find such a workflow and couldn't. No tech support apart from the forum which replied that it was coming soon-- implying that it would RECORD wavs fine-- just not import them.

I'll just curl up here with Sequoia-- I know it will (press W, choose the file, and bingo)

Rich

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by sonare

All I can say is that I tried to find such a workflow and couldn't. No tech support apart from the forum which replied that it was coming soon-- implying that it would RECORD wavs fine-- just not import them.

Rich

Reaper Main Menu: Insert/Media file, and pick an audio file from the window (AIFF, WAV MP3 etc.) Clip will be inserted at the playhead. If several files, either consecutively or each on its own track.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by sonare

I am told that it is possible to mimic S/D in others-- but the X-fade window is really what makes it possible to say that NO edit is impossible-- assuming the right notes can be found.
Rich

Having simulated 4 point editing in the Wavelab montage for years, and now having been a dedicated Pyramix user for about 15 months, I can say that the only really profound advantage of PMX is the ability to do the edits on multitrack material.

With stereo material I can be just as productive with Wavelab montage implementing insert/ripple provided I always used the equal power sinus crossfade and never edited the shape, I mean who does this?. 99.9% of my classical edits are the same xfade shape (sinus) and both takes have exactly matching fade envelopes, exactly time aligned.

With PMX now, I have much more control, which I generally don't need, but it is nice to have. SD is OK, just a different way of arranging the clips in the timeline. With wavelab, you click one button to ripple all the downstream clips out of the way, slide the new take in, and slide them back again. It is very quick and logical.

I love PMX mainly for other reasons, no-nonsense functionality, fantastic multitrack clip handling, wonderful mixer, multiple CD images per timeline, but the editing and SD are great as well. The productivity gains of PMX are significant over WL as most of my work is multitrack now, and I have all but abandoned Wavelab, especially with it's new incredibly confusing and unnecessary workspace setups.

[Plush]

SADist here with V. 5 hardware and V. 6 SADiE native. I use my own edit templates windows. Stereo or multi-track cutting, no difference in working with either. I'll never change from SADiE.

Trim windown in SADiE is key and the easiest to use that I have found.

Create anything I need as far as output (CD, DVD, DDP) right from the timeline.

Backup on to HD uses its own SADiE format that saves all files, edls, notes etc. Restore everything quickly from the hard drive.


thankyasomuch! SADiE!

[John Willett]

Sequoia here - version 11 at the moment.

I started with Red Roaster back in the 1990s and edited then with Fast Eddie.

As Red Roaster grew into Samplitude and Sequoia I stayed with it.

[studer58]

Originally Posted by Petrus

Reaper Main Menu: Insert/Media file, and pick an audio file from the window (AIFF, WAV MP3 etc.) Clip will be inserted at the playhead. If several files, either consecutively or each on its own track.

Complete and free Reaper user manual here: http://www.reaper.fm/userguide/ReaperUserGuide411C.pdf

page 72....and you can import multiple wavs, not just singly

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by studer58

page 72....and you can import multiple wavs, not just singly

Yeah, that's what I also meant with my last sentence... If you select several (WAV or whatever) files at the same time Reapers asks how to arrange them.

[sonare]

Personally I do not understand the thinking behind such a limitation--

Rich

[sonare]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

With stereo material I can be just as productive with Wavelab montage implementing insert/ripple provided I always used the equal power sinus crossfade and never edited the shape, I mean who does this?. 99.9% of my classical edits are the same xfade shape (sinus) and both takes have exactly matching fade envelopes, exactly time aligned.

Well I use the ability to alter the shape of either the in or out fade (sometimes the ONLY way to make an edit that cannot be heard) as well as the ability to alter the position and duration of each.

And I cannot imagine using only one shape and duration. And being able to work on as many crossfades as their are tracks seems rather essential. Hard to imagine a world where you had to bounce to 2tk before cutting.

But I am spoiled by this German monster!

Rich

[sonare]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Sequoia here - version 11 at the moment.

I started with Red Roaster back in the 1990s and edited then with Fast Eddie.

As Red Roaster grew into Samplitude and Sequoia I stayed with it.

Once I saw Sequoia in action at FineSplice London my mind was made up. Now that I think about it-- it seems strange that neither you nor Ben did not go with Sadie.

BTW--were the folk in the village able to block the runway extension initiative at Heathrow?

Rich

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by sonare

Once I saw Sequoia in action at FineSplice London my mind was made up. Now that I think about it-- it seems strange that neither you nor Ben did not go with Sadie.

The reason I did not go with SADiE was price.

When I started, SADiE was an editor that came complete with hardware and even in the early 1990s was £6,000+, it was just far more expensive than I could afford.

So I started with Fast Eddie and then got Red Roaster (which was the first CD burning program where you could set the start IDs where you wanted and did not have to cut the recording up into blocks which then put a 4" gap between them which was useless for classical). Red Roaster grew into Samplitude which grew into Sequoia; so I stayed with what I knew.

I rate Sequoia, SADiE and Pyramix pretty well equal at the top of the tree for classical editing and if I had had the money back in the early 1990s I would probably have gone for SADiE.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by sonare

Well I use the ability to alter the shape of either the in or out fade (sometimes the ONLY way to make an edit that cannot be heard) as well as the ability to alter the position and duration of each.

Altering the shape from the strict equal power shape can be risky, the edit will exhibit sound intensity change through the xfade. Maintaining the equal power shape for both fade out and fade in guarantees the volume will not change.

And I cannot imagine using only one shape and duration.

The one shape is the equal power sinus, but I vary the duration all the time of course. What I meant was that the duration is always equal between the fade out and the fade in.

[Roland]

I started with a system called Turtle Beach 56k. Prior to that I had done my first digital editing using Digidesign Sound Designer, which was very slow and cumbersome. I then traded up to Sadie shortly after they started and in the late 1990's I moved onto Pyramix. Sadie was great, but Pyramix allowed multitrack recording and editing. I still use that today, however, I got into Pro Tools for my multitrack recording and mixing work after a short stint on Logic Audio, neither of these are good for classical edits though.

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

. Maintaining the equal power shape for both fade out and fade in guarantees the volume will not change.

Provided you're only editing music that is ever at a quasi-constant level, like organ, but I find the possibility to change Curves extremely useful for choir, orchestra, chamber music, soloists - almost any other kind. And sometimes organ as well depending on the edit.
It might screw with the room tone, but the music seems far more important unless it's extremely quiet.