Soundfield MarkV

[S.Blanchardon]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I'm thinking of trying out the new Soundfield SPS 200 - it is affordable as it comes with software rather than the hardware processing unit.

As I have a NAGRA IV and you can gang all four mic. pre-amps to a single fader you know you are recording all four capsules identically.



Soundfield would actually like a 24-bit recording of Mike Skeet's (in)famous "Garage Door" recording. So, as Mike is a friend, we will probably get together and do a new 24-bit version of this very famous recording.

If you have never heard it, there is an MP3 version HERE - scroll down and it's the second one in the "Hi-Fi" section.


PS - Plush - I almost didn't recognise you as you have changed your avatar again - but nice to see you in the new Nagra bulletin

Hi John,

I think you mean NAGRA VI right ? Unless you have a special 4 track version of the mythical portable tape recorder ?

Well, all jokes apart, I can't comment on the use of the SPS200 with a NAGRA VI cause I don't have one (great machine BTW) but I can tell you that's a really great combination with my SONASAX SX-R4 ! thumbsup

It's great for music as a "main pair" (if we can still say it's a "pair") but will need spot microphones, as it is for ambience gathering in the wild.

The software plugin is really flexible but I should say from my personal experience that it's the "5 cardiods" configuration that works the best as I'm generally disapointed with the others, especially the super-cardiod one that I don't like at all, space and sound wise.

Oh, and before I forget, if you plan to take it outside for field recording, don't get the microphone with the Rycote bundle but look if you can buy it bundled with the Cinéla windshield.

My 2 eurocents.

[S.Blanchardon]

It should look like this :


(Windjammer is off)

Cheers,
Stéphane.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by S.Blanchardon

Hi John,

I think you mean NAGRA VI right ? Unless you have a special 4 track version of the mythical portable tape recorder ?

Oops - thanks - now corrected in the original.

Originally Posted by S.Blanchardon

Well, all jokes apart, I can't comment on the use of the SPS200 with a NAGRA VI cause I don't have one (great machine BTW) but I can tell you that's a really great combination with my SONASAX SX-R4 ! thumbsup

It's great for music as a "main pair" (if we can still say it's a "pair") but will need spot microphones, as it is for ambience gathering in the wild.

The software plugin is really flexible but I should say from my personal experience that it's the "5 cardiods" configuration that works the best as I'm generally disappointed with the others, especially the super-cardiod one that I don't like at all, space and sound wise.

Oh, and before I forget, if you plan to take it outside for field recording, don't get the microphone with the Rycote bundle but look if you can buy it bundled with the Cinéla windshield.

It should look like this :


(Windjammer is off)

Cheers,
Stéphane.

Thanks for your insights Stéphane.

[Denis Goekdag]

What do you prefer about the cinela windshield, Stéphane?

And have you ever compared the Sonosax to a Sound Devices recorder? I've been looking at the Sonosax *very* closely and I'd be very interested in any insights...

Cheers,
Denis

[S.Blanchardon]

John-> You're welcome !

Denis-> I have yet to order mine but having seen it in real I can say that :

-It's very well built.

-Less "cage interferences" due to the much bigger air volume inside (also helps to protect against the wind better)

-You have the choice between 3 different windshields : a double layer fabric, a short fur type and a long fur type. The 3 are very sound respectful.

-And last but not least the near-revolutionnary suspension system who shares the same "genetics" as the other Cinéla products and who is just marvelous !

All the infos here :

Cinela - ZEPHYX Windshield

Cheers,
Stéphane.

[S.Blanchardon]

Forgot to speak a bit about Sound Devices and Sonosax...

Well, my first field recorder was a 744T and I had a lot of pleasure to work with it !

But it was somewhat limited, with "only" 4 tracks and 2 mic preamps, so I was quite excited when Sonosax announced the SX-R4.

8 tracks, 4 gangable mic/line-pres plus 2 asymetrical line-ins, small, light and of course great swiss sound !

And now you even have a 64Gb SSD drive option !

I don't have any experiences of work with the 788T, only touched it a bit during shows, but it looks like a good machine with plenty of possibilities and options (CL-8 faders for instance).

Personnaly, I'm waiting Sonosax's SX-62R, a 6+2 tracks portable mixer with a built-in recorder.

I think that when you're looking for such a recorder, you have to consider size/weight/track number/options/what are your needs it for your own personnal kind of work and of course PRICE, depending on your budget ! Each will have it's own sound but none of them will sound "bad" I think. (of course, considering we're not talking about the cheap Tascam, Fostex stuff...)

Cheers,
Stéphane.

[Denis Goekdag]

Hey, thanks! I do like the looks of the Cinela windshield --- I have a stereo Rycote and while it does a good job in general I was pretty disappointed with the stability of the end caps (you get some creaking when moving the thing fast) as well as with the amount of mechanical noise that the basket itself is receiving from handling the pistol grip/boom pole --- the mics themselves are pretty well isolated against mechanical stuff since I replaced the hoops with Lyres, but that's not much use if the basket makes sound. The idea that the Cinela *basket* itself is suspended sounds pretty smart to me thumbsup

How would you describe the Sonosax in terms of *sound*, oher than "good" ?


I know, it's a pretty unanswerable question, I'll really just have to get a demo unit to see wether I like the sound or not, but any insights would be really helpful. More/less noise on the pre's compared to your 744? How does the limiter react in comparison?

Feature-wise it's really pretty much what I'm looking for: 8 tracks, at least 4 linkable pres for A/B-format or double-MS recording, 192khz samplng rate support (which is something the 788 and Nagra VI are lacking and why they're no option for me)....

Cheers!

[S.Blanchardon]

Hi Denis and sorry all for the following off topic !

The new rycote lyres are a great improvement over the former elastic suspensions and are almost perfect if your microphones remains static.

On the other hand, the Osix's are a true blessing when used on a cinema boom ! Handling noises are (almost) a thing of the past.

I've read not later than yesterday that Cinéla has dumped the metallic wires design for a new more sturdy and as efficient plastic type.

About the mic/line preamps on the SX-R4 : although not as "musical" as the ones on the NAGRA VI or on Sonosax's flagship console SX-ST (which I own too BTW...) they are really clean and nice sounding, but beware ! They do not attenuate completely when fully trimed down and and I find them a bit noisy on the "HI-Level" position, although you won't use this position most of the time.

You too have fallen on the 192KHz sirens !

I have yet too make my definitive opinion on this matter even if I WANT to record in 192KHz because I THINK it will sound better, but I really wonder where the truth is ? Otherwise I would have stopped thinking and already buy a bunch of Lavry Blue converters.... and spared me some disk space and processing power...

The "perfect" machine doesn't exist off course and each have their pros and cons, what matters is what YOU want to do and choose the TOOL that would suits you the best accordingly.

Cheers,
Stéphane.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by S.Blanchardon

The new rycote lyres are a great improvement over the former elastic suspensions and are almost perfect if your microphones remains static.

The Rycote's are also fine if you throw them around - but you have to remember that handling noise also comes up the cable. So a Rycote Conn-Box or S-series XLR tail is essential.

Originally Posted by S.Blanchardon

On the other hand, the Osix's are a true blessing when used on a cinema boom ! Handling noises are (almost) a thing of the past.

I've read not later than yesterday that Cinéla has dumped the metallic wires design for a new more sturdy and as efficient plastic type.

The Rycote and Osix use basically the same principle of suspension, but in a different way.

The Rycote Lyre and the Osix are the two best suspensions out there and streets ahead of anyone else. The measurements I have seen put the Rycote very marginally ahead, though. See THIS PDF.

Interesting in seeing Osix changing from metal to a polymer, though.

[S.Blanchardon]

As usual pros and cons for everything !

Sure, adding a deported cable is the best, but the conn-box is damn expensive and it comes natively with Cinéla's Osix !

With the Osix suspensions (which are also damn expensive !) you lost Rycote's modularity for something tailored for each type and brand of microphone.

Concerning the plastic news it's here :

DC Audiovisuel - Le temps du plastique*

And images are here :




Thanks DCAudiovisuel for the news and pictures ! thumbsup

Cheers,
Stéphane.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by S.Blanchardon

As usual pros and cons for everything !

Sure, adding a deported cable is the best, but the conn-box is damn expensive and it comes natively with Cinéla's Osix !

With the Osix suspensions (which are also damn expensive !) you lost Rycote's modularity for something tailored for each type and brand of microphone.

The ConnBox for a mono mic. halved in price a year or two ago when Rycote did a new design. £37.80 in the UK.

And the S-series cable is very cheap - £15 in the UK.

The Osix suspensions were expensive, delicate and designed for the mic. - but excellent.

The Rycote was cheaper and more universal - but just as excellent.

My understanding is that the Osix and Rycote are about equal in effectiveness and streets ahead of anything else.

Originally Posted by S.Blanchardon

Concerning the plastic news it's here :

DC Audiovisuel - Le temps du plastique*

And images are here :




Thanks DCAudiovisuel for the news and pictures ! thumbsup

Cheers,
Stéphane.

This looks very interesting - I suspect that this will make the Osix more rugged than the old version and, I suspect, a bit more universal.

[Nobilmente]

I only have suspensions of the same type made by Rycote, and it is the earlier type where thin(ish) elastic is slung in an aluminium cradle.

They are always static in use and employed for MS. I have not been aware of noise with this particular design. It does seem to isolate the microphones very well.

I'm not sure if this style is still available.........I'm sure you will know the type I'm on about. They work on the same basic principle as the Osix, in that the mics are isolated by the elastic.

This is not 100% my department, as the mics are always static, but I was just interested in what I was reading here.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Nobilmente

I only have suspensions of the same type made by Rycote, and it is the earlier type where thin(ish) elastic is slung in an aluminium cradle.

They are always static in use and employed for MS. I have not been aware of noise with this particular design. It does seem to isolate the microphones very well.

I'm not sure if this style is still available.........I'm sure you will know the type I'm on about. They work on the same basic principle as the Osix, in that the mics are isolated by the elastic.

This is not 100% my department, as the mics are always static, but I was just interested in what I was reading here.

The old Rycote mounts of metal hoops and O-rings are not done any more as the new "Lyre" mounts are much much better - also they do not deteriorate and droop over time.

Actually the Cinela Osix mount uses the same sort of principle as the Rycote "Lyres" - it just does it in a different way. The Osix does not use rubber, but metal (now changing to a polymer, see above).

If you have an old Rycote mount - they do inexpensive update kits to change the old mounts to the new "Lyre" sort.

I have just heard that there are price reductions on the Rycote stereo systems and they are now incorporating my design of an MS "Lyre" mount into the standard product line. This is very new and I'm still waiting for the price list to come (I should have charged them for my idea ).

[Nobilmente]

Thanks John,

The MS Lyre sounds interesting. I know that those that I have can be a bit fiddly to get balanced, and each mic has to have its own clip to fit the barrel size, it looks like the lyres give a little to accomodate the varying sizes.

In lieu of money, perhaps payment should be in calling it the "Willett MS Lyre" (seriously) the way brass players have a their own design of mouthpiece named after them!

Those that I have use only half of the circle shown in the picture below. The lower half!

I suppose if these things I have are working ok, I should wait and see what the situation is after the election! Let's hope that we don't all take a nose-dive and end up in the pool with those poor folks in Greece.

I'll investigate those updates though.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Nobilmente

Thanks John,

The MS Lyre sounds interesting. I know that those that I have can be a bit fiddly to get balanced, and each mic has to have its own clip to fit the barrel size, it looks like the lyres give a little to accomodate the varying sizes.

In lieu of money, perhaps payment should be in calling it the "Willett MS Lyre" (seriously) the way brass players have a their own design of mouthpiece named after them!

Those that I have use only half of the circle shown in the picture below. The lower half!

I suppose if these things I have are working ok, I should wait and see what the situation is after the election! Let's hope that we don't all take a nose-dive and end up in the pool with those poor folks in Greece.

I'll investigate those updates though.

Your picture is basically what was in my original Rycote suspension - but after talking to the designer and understanding how very much better the Lyre suspensions were, I played about with existing Rycote bits and designed my own - they are now on the Rycote price list.

[Nobilmente]

Hi John

I've replied to your email, but I don't know whether it has left the computer, I hope so.

All the best

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Nobilmente

Hi John

I've replied to your email, but I don't know whether it has left the computer, I hope so.

All the best

Thanks - but not received here yet.

[Nobilmente]

Hi John

I see you're on line now, and I've just been trying to work out how to send an email via the site.

The Rycote is probably about twenty years old I think. I hope you can remember the original question you sent!!

All the best

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Nobilmente

Hi John

I see you're on line now, and I've just been trying to work out how to send an email via the site.

The Rycote is probably about twenty years old I think. I hope you can remember the original question you sent!!

All the best

Received your PM and replied.

[Empiria]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I'm thinking of trying out the new Soundfield SPS 200 - it is affordable as it comes with software rather than the hardware processing unit.

Hello, John,

Have you already had a chance to try the SPS200? My eyes are on this baby, too. Any experienced users report would be helpful.

Thanks!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Empiria

Hello, John,

Have you already had a chance to try the SPS200? My eyes are on this baby, too. Any experienced users report would be helpful.

Thanks!

Not yet - I could not get hold of my contact at Soindfield.

I'm hoping to catch him at the European AES next weekend.

[SSLtech]

Digging this thread up yet again...

I've owned several Soundfield mics over the years; -in fact, I owned THREE at one point!

I've come to love and appreciate how they work so much that I even tried to build my own B-format microphone. -I works, but it's NOWHERE near as easy to set up as the Soundfield. I've also set up and used B-format nimbus arrays using Sennheiser MKH-800's, and I regularly use a Neumann SM-2.

The Soundfield is simply more 'applicable' microphone than the one which I built. -Eventually, I'd spent more than the cost of TWO Soundfield microphones, and managed to build something slightly inferior to the genuine article... -Thank goodness I also kept hold of one of the real ones!

Anyhow, using an external preamp I don't think nets you anything. The only purpose of the preamp stage in this mic is a 'short wire with gain', and ANY alterations in the 'character' is going to make it less accurate when the mathematic matrixing takes place. -The very idea of using an external preamp (as mentioned earlier) fills me with anxiety, since it starts replacing 'knowns' with 'unknowns'.

Other than that, My Soundfields were ALWAYS regularly used... and still are to this day.

-On the point of the Soundfield not always sounding 'best' when up-close... This is the ONE and ONLY area where my home-made B-format mic actually sounds slightly 'bigger'... I took it up to Bruce Swedien's studio a couple of years ago while it was still being finished, and we played around with it a little. -Bruce and I concluded that it was pretty impressive when used on a close-up background vocal group... but as soon as we got more than 5 or 6 feet away, everything just sounded as if the mic was "too far away"...

So my experimental voyage was not entirely without SOME positive discovery... but in the end, my appreciation for the Soundfield was actually increased.

I've got MUCH more use for a mic that sounds better further away than having to be up close to everything.

Keith