This maybe bad news for the New York City Opera

[Thomas W. Bethe]

BBC News - New York City Opera talks with unions end in stalemate

It seems the arts are going in the same direction as the recording industry -

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[Thomas W. Bethe]

^^^^^^

I bring this up for the informational value but also it seems to be the tip of the iceberg and I think in the not too distant future lots of smaller orchestras and opera companies are also going to be going belly up. This is going to put a lot of musicians out of work and will result in many of us having to find other things to do since we will not longer be recording these events.

The people who appreciate opera and going to the symphony are getting older and in many cases they have less disposable income to spend on an evening at the arts, so they don't go out as much as they use to. There is no music appreciation taught in schools any more due to budget cutting and young people are not being exposed to classical music at a young age. There will always be room for major orchestras but even the Cleveland Orchestra is having problems staying solvent and have recently been running deficit budgets which are not sustainable. The people who use to support the arts are getting many more humanitarian request from charities and food banks and are having to think seriously about how much they can afford to give and how it is parceled out.

This is not time for doom and gloom thinking but it is time for a wake up call.

FWIW and YMMV

[king2070lplaya]

Didn't we just have this discussion like 3 weeks ago?? I believe our talks ended in a stalemate.

I went to a recital by Nathan Gunn in the HUGE foellinger auditorium here at UIUC a few weeks back. Packed to the brim for a solo voice recital. Young and old.

[Howie J]

Go to TrumpetHerald and read under the Orchestral section. There is almost a running list of orchestras either in union/management battles, bankruptcy protection, etc.

Louisville just created a $hit$storm when they cut the orchestra from 70? to 55 and offered a lame contract to the musicians and said if the didn't accept it they would be seen as quitting. Now they are putting Craigslist ads all over the country for replacement musicians while still dealing with current ones.

I thought I read that Dallas was moving to a bankruptcy proceeding? I think just protection though.

From many of these that I have read, it seems to be poor management. They deal with millions of dollars, pay the orchestra well, but some decisions that I've read about are just stupid. Not only do they waste money, but they may lose benefactors that don't like how things are being handled. That's where it really hurts them.

There are many many factors that go into a failing arts organization. Loss of benefactors or endowments, different demographics, etc. But to say it can't work is misleading. How can a city like Minneapolis and St. Paul, here in a fly-over state, close to Chicago, have an amazing professional orchestra and the worlds ONLY full time chamber orchestra? Now, I know that MNOrch is definitely stepping up their sales and offers (I get them weekly), I haven't heard anything about them being in trouble.

Howie J

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Howie J

Go to TrumpetHerald and read under the Orchestral section. There is almost a running list of orchestras either in union/management battles, bankruptcy protection, etc.

Louisville just created a $hit$storm when they cut the orchestra from 70? to 55 and offered a lame contract to the musicians and said if the didn't accept it they would be seen as quitting. Now they are putting Craigslist ads all over the country for replacement musicians while still dealing with current ones.

I thought I read that Dallas was moving to a bankruptcy proceeding? I think just protection though.

From many of these that I have read, it seems to be poor management. They deal with millions of dollars, pay the orchestra well, but some decisions that I've read about are just stupid. Not only do they waste money, but they may lose benefactors that don't like how things are being handled. That's where it really hurts them.

There are many many factors that go into a failing arts organization. Loss of benefactors or endowments, different demographics, etc. But to say it can't work is misleading. How can a city like Minneapolis and St. Paul, here in a fly-over state, close to Chicago, have an amazing professional orchestra and the worlds ONLY full time chamber orchestra? Now, I know that MNOrch is definitely stepping up their sales and offers (I get them weekly), I haven't heard anything about them being in trouble.

Howie J

Not looking too good in the classical world...Cleveland Settles Orchestra Strike - NYTimes.com from a year ago and they are still having problems.

Maybe the way classical music is performed will have to change. Most orchestras play a 36 week season. If they do summer "pops" type concerts they are usually paid extra and a lots of the musicians don't like to play in pop orchestras so they have to hire freelancers to make up for the players who don't want to play. Some of the orchestra salaries have been creeping up not only for the players but for the administration. It maybe that there is a limit to how much they can rise given the shaky funding that is occuring in most orchestral fund raising. Administrations in many orchestras have been growing faster than the funds available to pay them leading to larger deficits.

Just recently the Cleveland Opera went belly up. They had been around for years but under a new management they started running up debts at the same time they started losing audiences. Not a good scenario for anyone.

Maybe if the economy improves it will take away the pressure on classical orchestras but the underlying problems will still be there.

FWIW and YMMV

[Howie J]

Maybe I spoke too soon!

Twin Cities orchestras address financial woes in weak economy | Minnesota Public Radio News

Howie J

[rumleymusic]

It is the same almost everywhere. Unions will not allow cuts to musicians pay, employers do not bring in enough income, benefactors do not donate as much anymore. All leading to the bankruptcy of these organizations.

Hate to say it, but some of those musicians are overpaid for the work they do. But I also acknowledge that without unions, most musicians would be severely underpaid. Acceptable compromise is a fantasy with these people.

So what happens? The poor administrators who don't have any union protection are first on the chopping block.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Howie J

Maybe I spoke too soon!

Twin Cities orchestras address financial woes in weak economy | Minnesota Public Radio News

Howie J

Too bad...I hope they can weather the storm.

[Uncle Russ]

Anyone who expects things to continue as they have lives in Fantasyland. I hate to admit it but the trend is obvious. (No anecdotal evidence, please!) Hope for the best but expect the worst and do everything you can to fight back.

[gainreduction]

In the US, how many of these operas and orchestras are government funded and to what extent ? And to what extent do they have to survive on ticket sales ?

Here in Sweden pretty much all of the classical orchestras, the opera in Stockholm and a lot of theaters depend very heavily on government funding. I think the Stockholm Opera is the highest % of government funding of all cultural activities in this country. I don't have an exact figure but ticket sales is a small part of their budget. The rest is tax money.

What about the NYCO ?

[audio ergo sum]

Classical music is subsidized everywhere. How much money a national culture is willing to give to classical culture depends. The US never had the tight cultural integration of classical culture as "ol' Urup" has. Classical music is not part of mainstream culture in the US, what was there was based on European immigration mostly. With that source drying out, the classical culture will disappear in the US slowly but steadily. Asians are technically most capable but can not fill the void emotionally. Just listen to the NYPhil. Today one of the technically best orchestras of the world but producing notes, not music...

IN the end it comes down how the society's cultural circle of immersion and education works in favor of classical music or against it. The heavier a culture is based on consumerism, the harder it is for classical music.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

In the US, how many of these operas and orchestras are government funded and to what extent ? And to what extent do they have to survive on ticket sales ?

Here in Sweden pretty much all of the classical orchestras, the opera in Stockholm and a lot of theaters depend very heavily on government funding. I think the Stockholm Opera is the highest % of government funding of all cultural activities in this country. I don't have an exact figure but ticket sales is a small part of their budget. The rest is tax money.

What about the NYCO ?

To my knowledge no symphony or opera company in the USA is "government funded" but they may get grants from the federal, state or local governments to fund some outreach or school based program where young people are "exposed" to the arts. I am not sure about the "National Symphony" in Washington DC but they may get some funding directly/in directly from the US government. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifest...M1D_story.html. Most orchestras and operas are funded by endowments, by ticket sales, by benefactors and by corporations or businesses. Some cities like Cleveland, Chicago and New York make a lot of fuss over "their" symphony orchestras but don't do much in the way of helping them monetarily.

Opera has taken a beating more than symphonic music because it is expensive to produce, seems very elitist to a lot of people (the operas are sung in their composer's native language in most cases and you have to be able to understand the language if you are to enjoy the performance or they run sub titles which can be VERY VERY annoying). When they are sung in a "native" language that most people in the audience can understand the real opera buffs poo poo the whole thing and stay away in large numbers saying it ruins the music. Operas do not appeal to many younger people who do not understand what is being said or sung or what their parents find interesting or appealing and would rather go to a "vampire movie" than watch Rigoletto. The cost of producing a world class opera performance can run into the millions of dollars. Ticket prices have gone up and up and up and the number of people attending has gone down. down, down. If you go to an opera most of the ticket holders are in their late 50's to 70's and they are a dying (literally) breed. I would say opera is going to go away more quickly than symphonies in the USA.

Chamber music and solo artist are making a last ditch effort to "entertain" audiences with innovative programing and making the whole concert seem more intimate and friendly with the performer(s) talking directly to the audience and in some cases demonstrating various techniques that they employ when playing the pieces. Again most young people who are use to the "next" button on their IPODs are bored sitting and listening to a long chamber or solo work. They want to get on to something else and I see them playing games on their cell phones or texting their friends which can be somewhat disruptive to other people in the audience and to the performers.

I am very afraid that this whole younger generation is being lost to classical music and opera. I dare say that if some young person today was given "dress circle" tickets to see a world class opera performance or a chance at getting a nose bleed ticket to <insert name of current famous rock star) they would almost always chose the latter. One major problem back in the the boom times of the 60's , 70' and early 80's was opera companies and symphony orchestras convinced themselves that this was going to continue Ad infinitum. They also still believe today that what they were doing back then continues to work in this economy and with this upcoming generation of young people... unfortunately nothing could be further from the truth. Until they face up to the present fiscal reality they are going to continue to be hurting. You cannot have an orchestra with 80 + musicians and support staffs getting paid their current salaries and expect the cash flow to be anything but downhill in the foreseeable future and if you give the kinds of raises a lot of orchestra members have asked for recently the end will come sooner than later IMHO. Orchestra and opera administrations have also grown exponentially and they are being paid larger and larger salaries and it is not sustainable under they way they are currently funded.

Too bad - for me and many others classical music represents some of the most exciting music imaginable and to watch a major symphony. like Cleveland. play a difficult piece with aplomb is truly a breath taking experience.

FWIW and YMMV

[gainreduction]

Just looked up the Stockholm opera (public record). It is actually not only government funded, it is owned by the state.

465 employees and an annual budget of around SEK 500 million. Of that 500 million, 432 are direct state funding, the rest ticket sales and "other" revenue . So yeah, it would not survive many seconds without support from the state.

I can only imagine how tough it must be for an opera to survive on its own. Hope they get it sorted out in NYC.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

Just looked up the Stockholm opera (public record). It is actually not only government funded, it is owned by the state.

465 employees and an annual budget of around SEK 500 million. Of that 500 million, 432 are direct state funding, the rest ticket sales and "other" revenue . So yeah, it would not survive many seconds without support from the state.

I can only imagine how tough it must be for an opera to survive on its own. Hope they get it sorted out in NYC.

My hat is off to you and your enlightened countrymen who also enjoy pop, rock, jazz, folk and so on. It can be done. No doubt you also educate children in school to classical music in all its forms. I believe we deserve better than we are getting. I do not want to get into politics so I will shut up right now.

[rumleymusic]

Asians are technically most capable but can not fill the void emotionally.

wow

[rumleymusic]

Just looked up the Stockholm opera (public record). It is actually not only government funded, it is owned by the state.

465 employees and an annual budget of around SEK 500 million. Of that 500 million, 432 are direct state funding, the rest ticket sales and "other" revenue . So yeah, it would not survive many seconds without support from the state.

WOW!

[gainreduction]

The reason I brought Stockholm up is that they, interestingly, have a lot of the same problems and discussions as in NYC. Hard making ends meet, despite solid government funding.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

wow

Nothing to be outraged about.

I also think Europeans in average have problems feeling and filling traditional Asian music to the last highest degree, just as Asians often have problems to achieve excellence in classical (European) music not only technically but also emotionally.

Just ask Kurt Masur what he thought about the NY Philharmonic orchestra, where he was chief conductor many years...

There is nothing wrong with that, to acknowledge that there are cultural differences.

[Uncle Russ]

This topic reminds me of how depressing reality can be and, in this case, I mostly blame my own generation for it passivity and questionable taste.

Hey! What if national governments gave the arts all the money they spend on "defense" ... and vice-versa? We no longer would have wars, only competition between symphonies!

[sonare]

As a former member of a major orchestra (Nashville) I have mixed feelings about some of the half-informed comments here.

RE salaries-- most salaried players make less than $30k/yr. In the US there are currently 10 orchestras with minimum salaries above $100,000/yr and lest you think it excessive-- what do the top thousand doctors and lawyers in the US make? Far, far more.

RE the NYCO: look across town at the Met-- and see sold-out houses; thriving income from video streaming and top-level player salaries. The part you don't see (and this applies to most orchestras) are heavy workloads (and the fact that the Met orchestra is almost double-staffed does not solve the challenges); extremely altered "family" time due to rehearsal and performance schedules and more. And in the orchestra world-- there is no difference between a rehearsal or concert- they are both "services" and there are usually 7 or 8 per week as allowed by the CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreement).

There are two kinds of orchestras in the US (apart from purely volunteer). There are those with a "core" of salaried players (up to 106), and those who use a mix of core with "per service" (add-on) players. While there is one overall union (the American Federation of Musicians) there are organizations within it such as ROPA (Regional Orchestra Players Association), and ICSOM (International Conference of Symphony and Opera Musicians). ICSOM represents the 50 largest in the US. These groups came about as a result of the AFofM coming to terms with the specialized needs of orchestra players compared to most of its members. The irony here is that since all union members pay "work dues" (a percentage of their check) to their local, most of that money comes from the orchestra members when there is an orchestra within the jurisdiction of the local.

All musicians are drawn to music from a love of it-- but before they are at the level to enable them to play in an orchestra the associated hassles begin to overshadow it-- such as how to make a living at it.

Rich

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by sonare

As a former member of a major orchestra (Nashville) I have mixed feelings about some of the half-informed comments here.

RE salaries-- most salaried players make less than $30k/yr. In the US there are currently 10 orchestras with minimum salaries above $100,000/yr and lest you think it excessive-- what do the top thousand doctors and lawyers in the US make? Far, far more.

RE the NYCO: look across town at the Met-- and see sold-out houses; thriving income from video streaming and top-level player salaries. The part you don't see (and this applies to most orchestras) are heavy workloads (and the fact that the Met orchestra is almost double-staffed does not solve the challenges); extremely altered "family" time due to rehearsal and performance schedules and more. And in the orchestra world-- there is no difference between a rehearsal or concert- they are both "services" and there are usually 7 or 8 per week as allowed by the CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreement).

There are two kinds of orchestras in the US (apart from purely volunteer). There are those with a "core" of salaried players (up to 106), and those who use a mix of core with "per service" (add-on) players. While there is one overall union (the American Federation of Musicians) there are organizations within it such as ROPA (Regional Orchestra Players Association), and ICSOM (International Conference of Symphony and Opera Musicians). ICSOM represents the 50 largest in the US. These groups came about as a result of the AFofM coming to terms with the specialized needs of orchestra players compared to most of its members. The irony here is that since all union members pay "work dues" (a percentage of their check) to their local, most of that money comes from the orchestra members when there is an orchestra within the jurisdiction of the local.

All musicians are drawn to music from a love of it-- but before they are at the level to enable them to play in an orchestra the associated hassles begin to overshadow it-- such as how to make a living at it.

Rich

All valid points.

One point a lot of people fail to consider when comparing musicians pay to lawyers or doctors. If a musician does something wrong in playing his instrument the most that could happen would be the conductor may get upset or he or she could get a bad review in the local paper. If a doctor or lawyer doesn't do their jobs properly the patient or the defendant could literally lose their life. A small but important difference.

I have a lot of friends who do orechestral pickup work locally for different venues and orchestras. Their part time incomes have been hit very hard by the disappearance of the local opera company, the ballet company and the folding of a really good regional orchestra. They are all hurting.

Compare this to a major symphony orchestra where not only do the players make a lot of money playing for the orchestra but also professors at the local conservatories and have private students whom they also charge for their services. Maybe they are only making $XX,XXX.XX from the symphony but combine that with their teaching and being an adjunct professor at a local conservatory and you could be talking 1.5 to 2 times as much. Not begrudging them the money but there are "other revenue streams" you failed to mention.

I also have a good friend in Nashville who use to do a lot of studio work and was getting paid well for his "instrumental chops" so well in fact that he gave up his classical career for the studio gig. The last time I talked to him things were not going as well as they were 20 years ago but he was still making some good money.

Music has become very devalued over the past couple of years. What was once the focus of a lot of people's lives has now become background music for all the other things that they now have access to. Take away all the video games, the on line videos and the DVDs and their cell phones and computers and maybe they would start to really listen to music again.

I see students walking on the campus of the local college with an ear bud in one ear, a cell phone on the other ear and carrying on a conversation with their friends all while walking on the sidewalk. Talk about multitasking.

There was a really good stereo store here that closed because they were trying to sell really good two channel stereo audio equipment but all their clients wanted low cost 5.1 and 7.1 surround systems for their home "theaters". If you go to Best Buy you can see people plunking down serious cash for a big screen TV and then paying less than $200 for their "surround system" I bring this up because I think it shows that a lot of people value the visual more than they do the aural. I listen to people comment in Best Buy about the "quality of the picture" or the "absence of artifacts" or how "clean" the picture is at the same time they are listening to some terrible speakers in a showroom that has multiple speaker systems all going at the same time and they don't even seem to mind.

If you look at a symphony orchestra you see a lot of well dressed men and women following a conductor but if you are more interested in the visual - there ain't really much going on. If you go to an opera you are more involved in the stage production but if you cannot understand what they are saying or what is going on then you also soon lose interest. In both of these presentations you have to basically know what you are seeing and listening to before you go and many people today do not want to take the time to do the prep work before they go to the concert hall or the opera. The want the here and now and do not want to do any research or take any of their "valuable time" to learn what it is they will be experiencing.

Only time will tell what will happen to classical music in the US but I am almost certain the outcome will not be the government helping them out.

As to unions and especially the AF of M....Not something I even want to get started on.

FWIW and YMMV

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

All valid points.

If a musician does something wrong in playing his instrument the most that could happen would be the conductor may get upset or he or she could get a bad review in the local paper. If a doctor or lawyer doesn't do their jobs properly the patient or the defendant could literally lose their life. A small but important difference.

Possibly overstated? Depends on how many errors the player makes (if it is habitual) and if the player has tenure. Intonation is also VERY important-- but my point is that the worst that can happen is losing your job (which in many cases means losing your career) in the case of a non-tenured player. If someone is tenured but can no longer play at the level of the orchestra they can still be sacked "for cause" if management is prepared to go through the many reviews specified by the CBA. The player will often see the handwriting on the wall and will negotiate a buyout of their contract.

Compare this to a major symphony orchestra where not only do the players make a lot of money playing for the orchestra but also professors at the local conservatories and have private students whom they also charge for their services. Maybe they are only making $XX,XXX.XX from the symphony but combine that with their teaching and being an adjunct professor at a local conservatory and you could be talking 1.5 to 2 times as much. Not begrudging them the money but there are "other revenue streams" you failed to mention.

The Cleveland area has many colleges and universities where faculty and adjunct positions may be found, but this is not normally the case. You are looking for about 100 positions, and that is a lot! Not to mention that there are also non-orchestral career academicians in many positions. Private teaching can be more lucrative. Are you saying that you think all players are making "lots of money"?

If you look at a symphony orchestra you see a lot of well dressed men and women following a conductor but if you are more interested in the visual - there ain't really much going on. If you go to an opera you are more involved in the stage production but if you cannot understand what they are saying or what is going on then you also soon lose interest. In both of these presentations you have to basically know what you are seeing and listening to before you go and many people today do not want to take the time to do the prep work before they go to the concert hall or the opera.

I really can't see anything you stated that is hugely different today. People will choose to devote time to their avocation just as in the past-- and they STILL react to the live music experience-- and always will. It is up to management to creatively present the "promise" of what an audience will experience. The Nashville Symphony management has shown what is possible with imagination and wisdom. They are certainly not the only case-- and you could argue that their area is not an inherently classical-friendly one. Could it be that the potential audience members are pretty much the same everywhere but the management makes the difference? Bottom line-- folks choose where they spend their entertainment dollars and whether they really get their money's worth is mostly up to them-- and thus has it ever been.

As for increased government involvement-- it is possible IF you want socialism, but I will pass, thanks.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by sonare

Possibly overstated? Depends on how many errors the player makes (if it is habitual) and if the player has tenure. Intonation is also VERY important-- but my point is that the worst that can happen is losing your job (which in many cases means losing your career) in the case of a non-tenured player. If someone is tenured but can no longer play at the level of the orchestra they can still be sacked "for cause" if management is prepared to go through the many reviews specified by the CBA. The player will often see the handwriting on the wall and will negotiate a buyout of their contract.



The Cleveland area has many colleges and universities where faculty and adjunct positions may be found, but this is not normally the case. You are looking for about 100 positions, and that is a lot! Not to mention that there are also non-orchestral career academicians in many positions. Private teaching can be more lucrative. Are you saying that you think all players are making "lots of money"?



I really can't see anything you stated that is hugely different today. People will choose to devote time to their avocation just as in the past-- and they STILL react to the live music experience-- and always will. It is up to management to creatively present the "promise" of what an audience will experience. The Nashville Symphony management has shown what is possible with imagination and wisdom. They are certainly not the only case-- and you could argue that their area is not an inherently classical-friendly one. Could it be that the potential audience members are pretty much the same everywhere but the management makes the difference? Bottom line-- folks choose where they spend their entertainment dollars and whether they really get their money's worth is mostly up to them-- and thus has it ever been.

As for increased government involvement-- it is possible IF you want socialism, but I will pass, thanks.

I think we are on the same page just different ways of looking at things. I dearly love classical music but see it going down in a sea of red ink. I think many symphony players are under paid in may cases and over paid in others. i venture to say that a full time faculty member at a GREAT teaching institution is paid about the same as a top ranked musician in a GREAT orchestra but the faculty member may have tenure and the symphonic musician may not.

I have been at some pre contract negotiations when they concerned me and services I was providing for a professional musical group and they are never fun. I am hoping that both management and the players can work through this whole mess and get back to providing GREAT music at a price everyone can afford. I am also of the same feeling when it comes to the management and what they can do to attract and hold audiences. I recently did a recording of the Canton orchestra and was gratified to see a nearly full house with lots of enthusiastic audience members. It can work but there is too much baggage in some places to allow it to happen.

Thanks for your insightful replies.

[rumleymusic]

Nothing to be outraged about.

I'm not outraged, I'm not Asian. It is a racial stereotype though, and although every stereotype has some underlying truth (not much in this case), it is usually best to keep them to one's self. Lest one offends the wrong person.

Kurt Masur, as you mentioned, has trouble keeping his verbiage in P.C. mode, not the best guy to emulate.

[RobAnderson]

It has not been my experience that the nationality of the performer really has much to do with the expression in their performance.

There are plenty of "European" faces in the NY Phil.

I'm not saying this is necessarily true of Masur, but often if a conductor is not getting the expression s/he wants from an orchestra (especially one of the caliber we are talking about), s/he should look in the mirror before blaming it on cultural stereotypes. Either the maestro/a, or his/her chosen repertoire, is failing to inspire or connect with the musicians.

On the flip side, when one is performing music as a profession, there are going to be times where the music you have to play is going to be less than inspiring, or there will be times where it is difficult to provide the "soul" after enduring a grueling touring and performing schedule, no matter how much you actually feel for the piece. Being able to muster that passion in the face of it all is the mark of the greatest of the professionals.

In the case of the NY Phil, there may be an additional challenge: in NY you have the additional "cultural" problem of trying to pay the bills as a professional musician in one of the most expensive and toughest cities in the world to live in. Competition and schedules here are fierce, expectations are extremely high, and the culture of the city itself is uncompromising. Living in NYC can eat your soul if you are not careful.

There are also studies that show that the perception of "feeling" has more to do with the individual who is listening than the one who is performing. Perhaps there are some listeners who cannot get past the concept of an "Asian" interpreting a composer from a European background, and so they cut themselves off from sharing in the true depth of the experience because they are distracted with the visual.

[sonare]

I am NOT trying to take the thread "off the tracks" but in the music world there is a rather pervasive opinion that in many cases the Asian dedication to really hard work on technique leaves the person with perhaps a little less ability to musically emote. And I agree-- esp when listening to the modern day Chicago Sym string section vs the "good old days" when I lived in Chicago in the early 80s. Soul vs squeaky clean.

This is a topic that is discussed in a variety of places and I am NOT trying to diss anyone-- but technical prowess in an audition is impossible to ignore vs the ability to project emotion and "soul"-- esp when it is at the expense of the quantifiable technical elements.

Perhaps this is P.C. vs personal opinion. You cannot be honest AND p.c.-- IMO.

Rich

[RobAnderson]

I think you hit closer to the problem when you discuss technique vs. expression than Asian vs. European.

Some of the most uninspired recordings of the Beethoven symphonies I have heard are the Von Karajan with Berlin Phil. Absolute technical perfection - total lack of soul. Listen to the Schnabel Beethoven Sonata's - lots of soul, but a few botched notes.

When you are reaching to express with some true abandon, you will inevitably miss a note or two in the process, but the expression will come through in spite of (or maybe because of) the "reaching beyond one's grasp," and (IMHO) that is where the music lies.

The beauty of recording is that with a lot of patience and attention, and a little editing magic, we have the potential to create the best of both worlds. Yet how many times does this actually happen in reality? How often is the less-than-perfect expressive take discarded for the mechanical, but note-perfect, one?

This has nothing to do with the country of origin of one's forebears and everything to do with a culture that expects perfection every night because of what they hear on the CD.

When everything is perfect, nothing is remarkable.

[sonare]

And I think that you have hit on the difference between setting up and pushing "record" and having empathy and knowledge of the music and the performer. Knowledge of the music really comes into play when editing-- hearing and understanding how to preserve the phrasing-- but still being able to insert the right note(s).

Rich

[sonare]

I should add that (paradoxically) the success or failure of "emoting" is indeed in the ears of the listener. One person's "fulfilling" is anothers "over the top."

[Bob Olhsson]

Most U.S. orchestras are funded by endowments that have been donated over a period of decades in addition to tickets. A number of major orchestras lost a significant percentage of their endowment income in the recent Wall Street scandals including Bernie Madoff in some cases.

Mismanagement of endowment funds is a lot of what's going on here. Just like the rest of society some are attempting to blame their financial woes on excessive wages and unions.