This maybe bad news for the New York City Opera

[hbphotoav]

Thomas, Rob and Rich... well played. Great discussion!

[sonare]

I am mildly curious about your source--

Rich

[sonare]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Thomas, Rob and Rich... well played. Great discussion!

But did we EMOTE when we played it? <G>

[Rolo 46]

We had a music documentary on BBC4 last night
Charles Hazelwood, a conductor ,issued a challenge to the BBC Symphony Orch to play the 1812 Overture in the 2011 Proms.
They would be using instruments fashioned from scrapyards by pro instrument makers.
They had 11 weeks to make the instruments from scratch.

Typical silly tv doco, a journey with musical jepardy and a tight time constraint....
The instrument makers were terrific and managed the task with wit and style.
However the conductor and front man was waspish, and a total prima dona,as if the performance would ruin his career.
The musicians took a similar view and never praised the instrument makers for their deft use of junk ,and long hours of development.
In the end the band prevailed and produced a very musical sound from an array of utter rubbish.
They were total pros, but they considered it would ruin their reputations.
They had little grace, or sense of humour.
But bags of ability.
Discuss

[RobAnderson]

I hate to say it, but classical music audiences have evolved over the past 100 years. Certain technical imperfections that were once overlooked or not even noticed are not to be tolerated any more.

Every time a performer gets up on stage, they are exposing themselves. The expectations are extremely high with today's audience (as they should be - commensurate with ticket prices). Having that much pressure often can take the humour out of any one, and the attitude of the audience can border on indifference, and sometimes even hostility.

Add to that the pressure that someone, somewhere is recording the concert. Every missed note, every last imperfection captured and magnified for all time, irrefutable proof that you are less than perfect.

Now take a performer out of their comfort zone - take away their prized, high-quality instrument and make them perform with something that they are not familiar with.

It would be like asking me to record a concert with a bunch of mic's I have never heard before that were built from salvaged pieces of scrap. I would offer a strong disclaimer about compromising my ability to deliver long before I turned any of the kit on.

[taturana]

well definitely there are differences... but that definitely does not mean that an asian musician is incapable of playing with emotion as i've known many that do and actually more than ocidentals...

... but i have known others that are a confirmation of the tale: an amazing perfect nut...but cold as hell..

they come in all nationalities... not only asian!

i agree one man's perfection might be the others emotion...

[crescentmoon]

In 2009, I attended a concert by the National Repertory Orchestra where a friend of mine was getting his piece performed. Looking around the auditorium, I found that my wife and I were quite a bit younger than the audience. Without new blood, the orchestra's days may be numbered. Also in my state, the Colorado Symphony Orchestra has seen its member's salaries cut by 24% in the last couple of years. Recently board members responsible for these cuts quit and now the orchestra is trying to pick up the pieces with a budget deficit. They've had a reduced season this fall and are starting full time this week. Even though the CSO salaries are among the lowest in the nation, they have about a 50% chance of survival.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by crescentmoon

In 2009, I attended a concert by the National Repertory Orchestra where a friend of mine was getting his piece performed. Looking around the auditorium, I found that my wife and I were quite a bit younger than the audience. Without new blood, the orchestra's days may be numbered. Also in my state, the Colorado Symphony Orchestra has seen its member's salaries cut by 24% in the last couple of years. Recently board members responsible for these cuts quit and now the orchestra is trying to pick up the pieces with a budget deficit. They've had a reduced season this fall and are starting full time this week. Even though the CSO salaries are among the lowest in the nation, they have about a 50% chance of survival.

This seems to prove my point above that management must creatively market-- either that or the folks in Colorado are less able to appreciate classical music. The board of an orchestra is not paid-- and it is not their JOB to raise funds. This is a detail that is usually misunderstood. Since they rarely get anything for it (other than the "prestige" of being on the board) and are usually expected to make monetary contributions-- their actions were probably an attempt to get the finances on an even keel-- regardless of how misguided they were.

Rich

[Rolo 46]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I hate to say it, but classical music audiences have evolved over the past 100 years. Certain technical imperfections that were once overlooked or not even noticed are not to be tolerated any more.

Every time a performer gets up on stage, they are exposing themselves. The expectations are extremely high with today's audience (as they should be - commensurate with ticket prices). Having that much pressure often can take the humour out of any one, and the attitude of the audience can border on indifference, and sometimes even hostility.

Add to that the pressure that someone, somewhere is recording the concert. Every missed note, every last imperfection captured and magnified for all time, irrefutable proof that you are less than perfect.

Now take a performer out of their comfort zone - take away their prized, high-quality instrument and make them perform with something that they are not familiar with.

It would be like asking me to record a concert with a bunch of mic's I have never heard before that were built from salvaged pieces of scrap. I would offer a strong disclaimer about compromising my ability to deliver long before I turned any of the kit on.

Good post Rob
However I would take a silly challenge with scrap yard mics from experts (I know a few) and go with the flow.
My humour might fail, but I would enter into the spirit with gusto,not derision
I would try not to be too prissy.
Some of my friends did make workable Ribbon mikes with cigarette paper..

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

Some of my friends did make workable Ribbon mikes with cigarette paper..

Paper? Or foil wrapper? Now you've got me wondering.

[RobAnderson]

Originally Posted by Rolo 46

Good post Rob
However I would take a silly challenge with scrap yard mics from experts (I know a few) and go with the flow.
My humour might fail, but I would enter into the spirit with gusto,not derision
I would try not to be too prissy.
Some of my friends did make workable Ribbon mikes with cigarette paper..

Ha!

BBC engineers don't count - they could probably make a decent tube mic from a 50p coin, a roll of gaff tape, and three sticks of chewing gum (with foil wrappers).

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I think you hit closer to the problem when you discuss technique vs. expression than Asian vs. European.

Some of the most uninspired recordings of the Beethoven symphonies I have heard are the Von Karajan with Berlin Phil. Absolute technical perfection - total lack of soul. Listen to the Schnabel Beethoven Sonata's - lots of soul, but a few botched notes.

When you are reaching to express with some true abandon, you will inevitably miss a note or two in the process, but the expression will come through in spite of (or maybe because of) the "reaching beyond one's grasp," and (IMHO) that is where the music lies.

The beauty of recording is that with a lot of patience and attention, and a little editing magic, we have the potential to create the best of both worlds. Yet how many times does this actually happen in reality? How often is the less-than-perfect expressive take discarded for the mechanical, but note-perfect, one?

This has nothing to do with the country of origin of one's forebears and everything to do with a culture that expects perfection every night because of what they hear on the CD.

When everything is perfect, nothing is remarkable.

I like and mostly agree with what you say here. In case of Masur I think he was commenting on the difference in orchestra culture in general between central Europe (Germany/Austria) and America. I think it is not offensive to say that American top orchestras, NYPhil and Chicago foremost, have developed a very high level of technical perfection on the cost of an almost soulless playing at times. These orchestras sound like machines often, they lack deep and interesting personality. Of course nothing is so clear and stereotypical, but as a trend I think it is true.

Karajan and BPhil again is somewhat an exception. Karajan very much adored and imitated the American 'perfectionist' sound and brilliant timbre, against the ideas of his predecessor Furtwängler, who was an epigone of the German/Austrian orchestra tradition, where too much brilliance is frowned upon, a warm string and brass sound is preferred, middle voices equally important, and a different idea of playing a chord together exists, not sharp together, but a little loose, giving a more impacting effect.

[rumleymusic]

Some of the most uninspired recordings of the Beethoven symphonies I have heard are the Von Karajan with Berlin Phil. Absolute technical perfection - total lack of soul.

Actually my favorite recordings of Beethoven 5 and 7 are with Karajan. I think they are the most powerful and exciting.

It goes to show you that the listener is the source of the emotion for the most part, not just the player.

I agree though that many orchestras today are too careful in their approach and sacrifice the real guts that is needed for great music making.

[king2070lplaya]

I don't think thats necessarily the truth, that's a pretty big generalization.

[Howie J]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

Karajan and BPhil again is somewhat an exception. Karajan very much adored and imitated the American 'perfectionist' sound and brilliant timbre, against the ideas of his predecessor Furtwängler, who was an epigone of the German/Austrian orchestra tradition, where too much brilliance is frowned upon, a warm string and brass sound is preferred, middle voices equally important, and a different idea of playing a chord together exists, not sharp together, but a little loose, giving a more impacting effect.

Probably why the Berlin Phil is one of the few orchestras that do almost all of their literature on the sidewinders!! (rotary trumpets) Rotaries give that warm, conical sound that the piston trumpet lacks. Also, the Bb trumpet is used more on that side of the pond than the C, which also adds to a broader sound. Bb rotary vs. piston C trumpet is a HUGE difference. About the only time you'll see american orchs playing rotaries is when they play Bruckner.

...sorry..just an orchestral trumpet geek moment....

Howie J

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by Howie J

Probably why the Berlin Phil is one of the few orchestras that do almost all of their literature on the sidewinders!! (rotary trumpets) Rotaries give that warm, conical sound that the piston trumpet lacks. Also, the Bb trumpet is used more on that side of the pond than the C, which also adds to a broader sound. Bb rotary vs. piston C trumpet is a HUGE difference. About the only time you'll see american orchs playing rotaries is when they play Bruckner.

...sorry..just an orchestral trumpet geek moment....

Howie J

Good points. German orchestras mostly play the rotary trumpets AFAIK. There are distinctive differences in the sonic cultures (and related instrument making and technique of playing) and it is great and I hope we will preserve them and they do not fall victim to a globalized mainstream ideal too soon.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya

I don't think thats necessarily the truth, that's a pretty big generalization.

He said MOST orchestras (professional, I assume). I agree.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

Good points. German orchestras mostly play the rotary trumpets AFAIK. There are distinctive differences in the sonic cultures (and related instrument making and technique of playing) and it is great and I hope we will preserve them and they do not fall victim to a globalized mainstream ideal too soon.

German/Austrian and some others MOSTLY play rotaries, which are 2/3 conical bore And the trombones are usually the same bore as US-- but the bellflares are annealed more (so they are softer). The horns are generally yellow brass, and the Viennese use the F-horn-- a very treacherous choice-- but that is THEIR sound. The American Conn 8D large silver horn is the opposite-- very broad and not edgy til you REALLY pump. The NY Phil is historically 8D territory-- the CSO just the opposite-- yellow brass Schmidts and Geyers with piston thumb valves.

European orchestra brass sections produce exciting overtones so it SOUNDS loud but really isn't. I recall hearing the Dresden Staatskapelle Orchestra play Bruckner 7-- blazing brass-- but you could still hear the strings even in the FFF passages! Suddenly the different sound-worlds of US vs European was perfectly clear.

[Howie J]

I think there is even a second "teir" of difference...at least from a tpt perspective. Like you mentioned...the German/Austrian tradition where you're in Schagerl/Monke rotary territory. Then, in much of the rest of Europe, and some in Asia, the Bb piston is used. You even see it in the audition notices. The Haydn or Hummel is requested on Bb in Europe/Asia, where here in the states, it's mostly performed on the smaller Eb horn. Especially in auditions. (Which is odd, since almost everyone learns it first on Bb.) Maurice Murphy, legendary LSO principal...Bb for majority of his playing. The new young cat that has his chair...same thing.

Here in the states, almost everyone is blowing piston C trumpets. Bach or Yamahas have held many posts for decades. Bud Herseth and the Bach C trumpet kind of set the tone for the next 50 years. (That happens when you keep a principal chair for 47 freakin' years) Even though many new makers have come out with great horns, both "traditional" and heavier/lighter, it still seems pretty heavy in the Bach 229/Chicago C realm. You have to go to Brazil to get a Monette section. I think Israel Phil was an all Monette section too. San Diego was for a while...but that changed a bit lately I believe.

Either way, Just like the German/French/Italian sounds that developed through the 18th/19th centuries, now, each continent is seeming to develop their own little nuance...with the bulk of Europe somewhat split.

Howie J

[rumleymusic]

San Diego was for a while...but that changed a bit lately I believe.

Yeah, Calvin Price used a Monette for a while. After developing a hernia and back problems from holding the immensely heavy gold trumpet, he now usually picks up his trusty Bach. I like the sound better anyway.

[sonare]

Bud used a Monette for several years-- and there were many who thought that it shaved off several career years.

[king2070lplaya]

Haha yeah there's that Pictures recording with Neeme Jarvi from the early 90s that he plays the monette on. His tone is NOT the legendary herseth tone on that one.

[newdigitaluser]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

BBC News - New York City Opera talks with unions end in stalemate

It seems the arts are going in the same direction as the recording industry -

D
o
w
n
h
i
l
l

the arts will do good
the unions may put themselves out of work

[Howie J]

Originally Posted by sonare

Bud used a Monette for several years-- and there were many who thought that it shaved off several career years.

Yeah...he only made it to 80 before he retired.... 53 years ain't nothin' tutt

I play the mouthpieces...but haven't had a chance on a horn.


P.S. Thomas...sorry for hijacking and turning this into a discussion of brass playing styles/instruments...

[Rolo 46]

It was a bit gynaecological for us non players....

[rumleymusic]

It was a bit gynaecological for us non players....

You are right, it does look like a female reproductive organ.

[Howie J]

Touché good sir, touché

...this one has all the "flair" needed....

[Don S]

Originally Posted by sonare

The NY Phil is historically 8D territory-- the CSO just the opposite-- yellow brass Schmidts and Geyers with piston thumb valves.

The NYP horn section has been playing Geyer style horns for quite a while now. About 9 years. The 8D is now almost a dinosaur.

[Rolo 46]

What were the female reproductive organs of an 8D Dino like?

I saw a 200' dino fossil in Patagonia....

[boojum]

So Bob Dylan has been quoted and he certainly was part of the revolution that ended "Tin Pan Alley music" and replaced it with folk, folk rock, rock, hard rock, etc. Along with the demise of Tin Pan Alley was the slow death of jazz and classical, never healthy members of the recent musical world. Tastes have changed. I think they have become way less sophisticated. Both jazz and classical depend upon more than beat and redundant melody.

In the old "it snowed a lot more when I was a kid" vein, during the mid to late 50's I could schedule an evening of classical concerts off the NY Times listings for FM stations. Jazz was broadcast on FM, too. FM was the refined medium with AM devoted to pop music. No more. Jazz and classical just do not generate the cash flow that pop does. It's all about the money. And without the angels to support the overhead in classical and the customers for jazz they are hardly more than fond memories for old farts such as I.

And as one writer asked, "Just how many versions of Beethoven's symphonies do we really need?" The classical catelog is quite full with many excellent and definitive performances. The medium is not only the message, it is the poison. Like the indestructible fiber in The Man in the White Suit, the permanence of the CD is its downfall.