Classical editing sheet, copy, paste, workflow, tricks...

[GIACOMO-_]

Classical recordings are full of edit parts. Editing is a job.

How about this ?

From 4:40 in this video is possible see a tracking sheetm with a tabel. The perfect take ? What is ? Editing sheet ? What about this process ?

Lang Lang - Lang Lang / Liszt - My Piano Hero EPK - YouTube


I've read this website

Paul Cantrell's piano recording method: Recording and Editing

but web is very poor of information about editing in classical music, from a technical pointview.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by GIACOMO-_

Classical recordings are full of edit parts. Editing is a job.

How about this ?

From 4:40 in this video is possible see a tracking sheetm with a tabel. The perfect take ? What is ? Editing sheet ? What about this process ?

Lang Lang - Lang Lang / Liszt - My Piano Hero EPK - YouTube


I've read this website

Paul Cantrell's piano recording method: Recording and Editing

but web is very poor of information about editing in classical music, from a technical pointview.

Everybody has their own approach and opinions. A sheet idea can work, but you have to be careful. Producing and editing classical music is a listening job, and if you have your head down writing copious notes you aren't listening!

Personally I keep quite basic notes, I describe takes in four categories, great, good, ok and scrap. I'm looking for great and good, I might have to settle for ok. I mark problem bars/sections that I know I will have to retake. I look to have two decent takes of everything, however closely you listen to things there are always other issues that creep in during editing.

I'm afraid I'm not personally a fan of Paul Cantrall's piano recording technique, but that is just my opinion, I do things a different way, it works for me.

Remember it is all about the artist, what you would expect from Lang Lang on a session might be well out of reach of another otherwise good artist, judging the players level, getting the best they can achieve is all part of the process.

[Celloman]

As was already pointed out, there is a different approach by just about every producer. However, I think the tracking sheet is just to keep track of which takes cover which measures and where they can be found in the storage, with maybe a comment added. Most producing and various markings are done directly into the score (not shown in the movie because everything is perfect ). You can fill in the tracking sheet in 2-3 seconds before each take, then make your markings in the score with a corresponding take #. At the end of the take, you can take 2 seconds and write a comment on the overall success of the take or the performers comments and reaction for future reference.

Mike

[JazzSax_UT]

Originally Posted by Celloman

As was already pointed out, there is a different approach by just about every producer. However, I think the tracking sheet is just to keep track of which takes cover which measures and where they can be found in the storage, with maybe a comment added. Most producing and various markings are done directly into the score (not shown in the movie because everything is perfect ). You can fill in the tracking sheet in 2-3 seconds before each take, then make your markings in the score with a corresponding take #. At the end of the take, you can take 2 seconds and write a comment on the overall success of the take or the performers comments and reaction for future reference.

Mike

Yep, that's my approach too. I'll write my takes directly in the score.

[Ozpeter]

Ideally the producer marks up the score (in whatever way he/she likes) and the engineer keeps a log on preprinted paper, with the most basic information. The two sets of records should correlate so that when the producer later says, "let me hear take x from bar y" the engineer can quickly present the right take at the right point.

If the engineer is the producer, the marked score is the first priority. Between takes it may be possible to maintain a simple log as well.

By the way, I used to help keep track of things by keeping a note of the starting and ending points of each take using three numbers, thus -

12-2-5

Which means Page 12, stave (or system) 2, bar 5 within the that system.

Often easier and quicker than working out what bar relative to the start of the whole piece you're at.

Later when labelling the clips in the DAW's timeline, you can use the same method and add the take number, eg

12-2-6:21

Which means the clip is from take 21 and starts at page 12, stave 2, bar 6. Thus you can work backwards from the DAW to the music.

As for what to mark in the music, I tended to keep things simple - an "x" and perhaps a circle round the wrong note if totally wrong, a question mark against a point or general area in the music if I suspected it was wrong, and two question marks if I was almost sure it was wrong! Always with the take number added (so you know in what take the problem lies). Then in the next take, put a tick against the previous ? or X, again noting the take number, to show it was now corrected. Before moving on to the next part of the piece, look and see if all ? or X marks have later ticks against them. Then you know you are covered.

A character like L upside down would mark the start and end of a take with an associated take number. Characters beside that like F for false start could be added - or FFF if the player was finding it really hard to start the take! - X beside the take number if it was hopeless in its entirely and abandoned. Ensure that the take start / end marks show an overlap between takes to allow for editing. No 'cold starts'!

When marking the edits to be done, write a letter T at the place, and to the left of the T mark the take which was not being used past that point, and to the right of the T mark the take now to be used. All standard stuff no doubt.

[fifthcircle]

When I produce classical recordings, I sit there with a score that I tell the performer/composer/whoever is hiring me to expect to be marked up in pen. I tend to use bright colors- especially red to keep track of issues. I also will write take start points in the music as well. When I see a that has been fixed, I'll usually mark the take with a circle around it.

Then, on my take sheet, I take exact notes about each take- start and stop locations, and false starts. Each take lines up exactly with file/take names in the DAW session.

So far, has worked pretty well for me.

--Ben

[Ozpeter]

Oh, and about the video - don't believe everything you see! I recall having a TV crew in the control room once, pointing cameras at me and expecting to get an interesting image, but normally during a take (when working with a producer) I sit absolutely frozen to avoid distraction. But with the TV crew there, I had to energetically fiddle with faders that had no mics connected and mute and unmute such channels so that there was at least something other than the equivalent of a still photo for them. And after they had gone and we could all concentrate again, we went back and redid everything for real.

[David Spearritt]

Similar to the others, I mark mistakes on the score with little e for ensemble, n for noise, i for intonation, t for tempo etc and a cross next to it with the take nr. When they cover the mistake in a subsequent take I put a tick next to the cross and the tick take nr. I double tick or triple tick for good and great difficult sections with the take nr.

If all the crosses are ticked, then the work is covered.

[GIACOMO-_]

Thanks for yours answers, very good.

In sequencer project (es. Samplitude, Sequoia, Cubase, Protools) how you oriented ? With marker ? For jump to a bar and another, is ok using markers ? One every stave, or one every bar ?

Samplitude offer "revolver tracks", is good for make many takes ?

[Roland]

Originally Posted by GIACOMO-_

Thanks for yours answers, very good.

In sequencer project (es. Samplitude, Sequoia, Cubase, Protools) how you oriented ? With marker ? For jump to a bar and another, is ok using markers ? One every stave, or one every bar ?

Samplitude offer "revolver tracks", is good for make many takes ?

Ideally Clip names should reflect take numbers, not a problem for me as I have Pyramix and it automatically increments take numbers.

In addition to the notes which should give a guide to what each take contains, as pointed out the score is marked with details of correct/incorrect, bars/notes/sections as mentioned by David above, good takes in problem bars should have take number noted. It's very similar to the way I work and I would recommend this as a good strategy.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I normally work with a producer. He keeps his notes on a copy of the score (usually in various colored pencils) and I keep an engineering log with take numbers, start and stop times and notations like NG (no good) FS (false start) NO (noise) GT (good take) etc. Normally when he has his score notes and my engineering notes he/she has everything to do the editing.

Classical recording is a very collaborative venture and everyone has their say. As part of my engineering log I also keep track of what the performers are saying and what takes they consider a good take from the player's vantage point.

I have worked with producers that are completely unorganized and don't do any markups of the score and I can never understand how they know when everything is covered. I have also had producers reach across the audio console and start twiddling EQ knobs in the middle of a series of takes which IMHO is not too cool. Luckily it was on an unused channel.

I did a lot of Baroque ensemble recording. As everyone knows there is a lot of room for interpretation and ornamentations are part of the genre. We had one harpsichord player who NEVER played the ornamentation the same way so every take was different. I pitied the poor editor on that project and was glad it was not me.

Classical recording can be a lot of fun but it can also be very nerve racking when union musicians are involved and there is a clock running and you better be done with all the takes when the three hours are up.

Hope this helps!

[neirbod]

As someone who has done a fair amount of classical recording but only live concerts (i.e., single take with false starts, coughs, farts and all), I find this topic very interesting. When doing multiple takes, how do you and/or the conductor ensure the tempos match perfectly? It seems like splicing together takes that differ in tempo even slightly would be very noticeable. I imagine the best conductors have a great internal metronome, but certainly there must be some variation from take to take for most conductors. Metronome? Click track? Time stretch in post?

[Ozpeter]

The musicians should have no trouble maintaining correct tempo.

The editor should have no trouble fixing things when the musicians stuff up, but that's very rare in my experience.

Occasionally the musician(s) will ask for playback from control room to auditorium immediately before playing a retake. Ideally your intercom links should provide for that event without the playback sounding too dire.

[Richard Black]

I've done loads of edits where the speeds don't strictly match - funnily enough, even if you know it's there it's hard to spot. The thing is that speed varies within a piece anyway, even from beat to beat, so small changes from one take to the next aren't a big deal.

[rumleymusic]

A few bpm is hardly noticeable. Most conductors cannot even keep a steady tempo from measure to measure in a piece like Bolero. Edits are usually not a problem from performance to performance in the same concert weekend at the same venue.

[neirbod]

Good info, all. Thanks.

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

A few bpm is hardly noticeable. Most conductors cannot even keep a steady tempo from measure to measure in a piece like Bolero. Edits are usually not a problem from performance to performance in the same concert weekend at the same venue.

On the other hand I have encountered an organist, who played a 13 minute part of his own organ symphony three times, two takes were equal length within 0,15 seconds, third one, played another day, was 1.5 secs off...

[rumleymusic]

On the other hand I have encountered an organist, who played a 13 minute part of his own organ symphony three times, two takes were equal length within 0,15 seconds, third one, played another day, was 1.5 secs off...

Yikes. I have heard of such precision with a Ghanan Drum circle, but not with an organist. That is scary good. Especially considering organists are sometimes just failed pianists just as violists are quite frequently just failed violinists (You can quote me on that ). I guess there is always the rare and talented exceptions.

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Yikes. I have heard of such precision with a Ghanan Drum circle, but not with an organist. That is scary good. Especially considering organists are sometimes just failed pianists just as violists are quite frequently just failed violinists (You can quote me on that ). I guess there is always the rare and talented exceptions.

The same fella speaks 15 languages perfectly, or better than natives, and another 15 almost as well. He will not visit a country unless he knows the language beforehand... So his timing accuracy did not really surprise me.

[Ozpeter]

Especially considering organists are sometimes just failed pianists just as violists are quite frequently just failed violinists (You can quote me on that ).

Seeing that we're all supposed to be behaving ourselves at the moment, I will resist rising to that with considerable difficulty!

[organism]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

Seeing that we're all supposed to be behaving ourselves at the moment, I will resist rising to that with considerable difficulty!

I'm struggling as well! At least he said sometimes just failed pianists....

[rumleymusic]

I'm struggling as well! At least he said sometimes just failed pianists....

Seeing that we're all supposed to be behaving ourselves at the moment, I will resist rising to that with considerable difficulty!

I had to add the "sometimes" afterward to be nice.

[sonare]

This is a great thread for learning new tricks! Since I am usually producing as well as "engineering" I cannot help but notice that no one has talked about the JOB of the producer-- to help the musicians take the music to a higher level. I will make suggestions via the phrase "what would you think about" or 'have you considered." I am curious how others go about pointing out pitch issues.

I use colored pens to mark the score-- red is always the first take of a movement or piece-- blue is second, green is three, orange is four etc. I have lately been letting things roll to capture discussion after a take as it helps in editing. All movements get two complete takes, and I should point out that it helps to start a patch take well ahead of the problem you are trying to solve-- as well as letting things roll beyond what is "needed"-- because it may be musically necessary to edit in a different spot than where you planned. I try to mark a score so that is the main guide, and the take sheet is looked at only to try to tell where the take starts and stops. If only the DAW had ESP and could also write in bar numbers-- but that's where editable markers come in very handy.

I would not go back to a razor blade for all the coffee in Seattle. The current generation has no idea that once upon a time you could not do unlimited length/shape crossfades, and that only the very brave would cut AFTER the attack (which often yields a more successful edit).

Rich

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by sonare

This is a great thread for learning new tricks! Since I am usually producing as well as "engineering" I cannot help but notice that no one has talked about the JOB of the producer-- to help the musicians take the music to a higher level. I will make suggestions via the phrase "what would you think about" or 'have you considered." I am curious how others go about pointing out pitch issues.Rich

Good point! Yes, one has so summon diplomacy skills when producing. I am blunt and to the point in my natural state, so I have to constantly bite my tongue before speaking and pass the content through the "be gentle and empathetic" filter.

Sometimes increasing tempo helps a pedestrian take, advising on thinking more strongly about the style of the music, or mixing singers up for a better blend. These are standard techniques. Lifting the mood of the session always helps by being positive and enthusiastic, taking a break etc.

What I love about great musicians is that they need no advice generally, rare reminders on ensemble and pitch are all that is required.

It's a difficult job and I admire the skills of the great producers enormously.

[Plush]

[Post B&K 4006]

Certainly a lot of good ideas here in this thread. Bravo!

Here, when I am telling new people the tricks to keeping a session log, I stress learning about 10 shorthand marks to mark up the score.

These marks are made right where the problem occurred with the take number included and a minus (mistake) mark. Only mistakes are marked. For example a sagging pitch or late entrance is marked on the orchestral score over the offending instrument part.
Bad faggot! (that's a bassoon dontchaknow!)

When the mistake is corrected a plus (+) mark is made with the take number. When you look at the score when the recording session is finished, you already have a clear road map for doing the edits. Editing is thought about and visualized during the recording portion of the work.


These marks are a one stroke mark from your pencil. I feel that word commentary takes too much time. The marks tell all. There are about 25 marks in the shorthand dictionary, but probably around 10 of them are used most often.

They note things such as pitch problems (up or down), tempo variations, whether the section is from a repeat and going back or a repeat and going forward, late / early entrances, ensemble portions not together etc. There are short two letter comments about the hierarchy of "goodness" of a take with pretty good, no good and useable among the options. There is also the all important "as good as they can do" judgement marking.

There are separate marks for intruding noises and these are marked in the score with the take number right where they happened.

Recording log sheets note where the take started and a timecode / index mark for the tape recorder.

Pitch problems are addressed in a straightforward manner. A comment such as, "for the top of page 14 at letter G (Gustav) the pitch is suffering in the horn parts. Second horn is late and not moving with the ensemble. We need to re-do from X section through measure 121."

We always talk directly to the person who made the mistake if we know who it is, trying to use their name. This is the business we have gathered to accomplish and it is assumed that no one need be offended in working efficiently.

If there is a separate producer, they really do need to understand everything about the recording process. Sometimes they don't know what they want or they will specify certain mics that may or may not be a great choice for the intended pick up. Discussion and collaboration is key but no producer will roll over a very experienced engineer. That will not be happening.

Likewise, if a producer reaches in to move the faders or an EQ knob, their hand will be slapped. Deaf before dishonor.

[Zem]

A very interesting thread indeed.

I wonder if one of you gentlemen would be kind enough to share with the rest of us an example of one page of an annotated score (especially one made during the recording of a "less than stellar" musicians, and especially the engineers/producers who make the difference between tempo, pitch, ensemble, etc...) ?
No need, of course, to name the musicians or the label.
My concern is how can you take corrects notes on such a small space when you do 30 takes of the same 12 mesures (for example) ?
I have difficulties to stay readable after the 4th or 5th take (but, that's true, I write like a ###)

Thanks

Romain

[Ozpeter]

Re notes in a small section with many takes - setting aside the need for the takes... - stick to cross and tick marks only. You will write more clearly when writing slower. Then immediately after the take, add in the take number to which those marks apply, and maybe add any other detail from immediate memory. And in the later takes, you'll only be interested in certain points, so focus on those - you are probably not thinking of what is better than which, just "are we covered?"

Re tact. I used to work regularly with a very good producer - amazing ear for errors and ability to spot things wrong (and right) in the most complex and obscure music. But - he had an inflated concept of the ownership of the project. He felt that it was his recording and the musicians were simply there to do the donkey work of playing to his satisfaction. This "ownership" thing is very important in the relationship between producer and musician. On several of the CDs that this guy and I worked on, his bluntness in insisting on having the last say in matters of both technical accuracy and also (here's the tricky point) interpretation lead to either he or the musicians downing tools and refusing to proceed. It was then down to me (why??!) to negotiate with the warring parties and try to broker an understanding which got us through to the end of the sessions with the job done.

So - if you think it's your recording, not the musicians, make sure they understand that before the session. (They probably won't - better to scrap the whole thing before, rather than during, the recordings).

I worked without a producer on a number of recordings but again, I made sure that the musicians had no illusions about my adequacy in the producer role. I was prepared to keep all necessary notes, and would mark errors based on what I heard and on their comments after the take. It's amazing how (good) musicians can play five or six pages then tell you bar by bar what was wrong or what covered previous errors. I would very occasionally venture an opinion about non-technical performance matters. But as I knew very well that my musical knowledge and proficiency was a fraction of theirs, I could not picture myself causing offence. Typically I would say something like "I may be wrong but did I hear a little something amiss in bar 25?" (Heh, how English!). I once caused merriment by remaking "I believe in bar 90 you were thinking of making a mistake?" which caused the musician to congratulate me on my mind-reading.

Interpretative matters I would deal with in the most general terms only. Often with inexperienced singers doing demo tapes I would suggest that they imagined themselves to be performing before an audience of blind music publishers - "You have to sell them the song - but using you voice only, without relying on gestures of the body". And once when recording a Romance for piano, at the end of the first full take, I asked the pianist whether he had ever been in love. "Of course!" he replied. "I didn't realise that", I said. "Now let's play it right through again".

If that level of production was not to their liking the answer was of course - "get a proper producer".


From my inexhaustable supply of recordist's anecdotes...

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Zem

A very interesting thread indeed.

I wonder if one of you gentlemen would be kind enough to share with the rest of us an example of one page of an annotated score (especially one made during the recording of a "less than stellar" musicians, and especially the engineers/producers who make the difference between tempo, pitch, ensemble, etc...) ?
No need, of course, to name the musicians or the label.
My concern is how can you take corrects notes on such a small space when you do 30 takes of the same 12 mesures (for example) ?
I have difficulties to stay readable after the 4th or 5th take (but, that's true, I write like a ###)

Thanks

Romain

If an artist (no-- make that PLAYER) needs 30 takes to successfully negotiate 12 bars then they should save their money and your time.

If there are lots of both then insist that they help you edit it!

Rich

[Zem]

Originally Posted by sonare

If an artist (no-- make that PLAYER) needs 30 takes to successfully negotiate 12 bars then they should save their money and your time.

Yeah, well, you're absolutely right....

But, sometimes when the music is really tricky (i.e. Carter's string quartets, or Ferneyough, or almost everything from that era...), it needs 20 takes, even for well trained musicians to get it right (and, no, "with this kind of music no one will ever ear a difference" is not a valid point ) !

Believe me, writing readable notes on that kind of score is really difficult, that's mostly why I asked.

[Ozpeter]

There's also the trick of photocopying the pages where this might be expected to occur, then you cut up the copy and paste to more pages with bigger gaps between the staves. Not well described but you'll know what I'm getting at.

Trouble is, photocopying music is an arrestable offence these days...