Classical editing sheet, copy, paste, workflow, tricks...

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

Do you think God himself could be a good producer ?...

Obviously not, since he produced us.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

Also needs definition what is a mistake. Easy for wrong notes. But a less clear grey zone for intonation and timing.

I find intonation the easiest of all defects to detect. It is an absolute truth.

The most important thing for a producer - after he got all the hard and soft skills necessary - is to create the right mindset for himself. Don't be the catcher of mistakes. Look for the good stuff! ...
(and catch mistakes on the side)

This is gold! I find it very difficult not to just look for defects. My default mindset is always listen for mistakes. I am a glass half empty person. One ends up with something that can be pieced together, but not great.

Concentrating on the good stuff is much more important, and a better performance will result. Something to aspire to.

Good to have you back Ergo.

[Zem]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

You would be amazed at how many obvious mistakes are not caught by musicians themselves, or, my favorite experience, modern composers.

Yeah, modern composers have a very special skill :they, almost everytime, prefer the take with a mistake rather than the good one !

composer : "This take is THE best"
Me : "You know that's not what you wrote ?"
Comp :"Are you sure ?"
Me : "Look for yourself."
Comp : "Oh, you're right... let's use another one"

[RobAnderson]

Originally Posted by dseetoo

This thread is waiving through from tools used to producer’s abilities. It makes me think about what it takes to be a good producer.
Classical music producer is such a multi- disciplinary job it requires a lot of different knowledge and ability. I am trying to come up with a simply list of some prerequisites.
1 Be a very well trained full-fledged good musician, capable of playing an instrument in a concert collaborating with the musicians you are recording. That says a lot!
2 You can “read” the sheet music by listening to the music.
3 You can “hear” the music by reading the sheet music.
4 Having a fantastic relative pitch is a must, having a perfect pitch is even better. Having a rock steady internal clock helps a lot. Instruments tuning start to drift, or the tempo start to differ between takes even at the slightest amount you should know it. If someone plays you a couple bars of music, known or unknown, and gives you the score, you should be able to open the score and find those bars on the score quickly, within seconds.
5 You have to know compositional theory well; counterpoint, voice-leading, 4-voice harmony, fugue, canon, forms…
6 You should know most of classic repertoire; chamber music, symphonic music, solo instrument music and lots and lots of vocal music. Only through knowing all those standard repertoire you then would be able to develop a good sense and sensibility. How can you possibly gain any trust from the professional musicians if you can’t think or function like they do?
7 You should always remember to check your own ego at home before you go to work. You are there to help making someone else’s music statement through a recording, not your own.
8 Be friendly, be patient, be gentle, be firm, be persistent, be compassionate. Know how to be demanding, but more importantly know when to stop being demanding. There is a lot of psychology going on during the session; being a good performing musician yourself, you will have much better feel for it and you need to apply all of it. A lot of times, it is not what you say but how you say it.
9 Know a lot about acoustic principle, microphone technology and technique, able to correlate the sound you hear in the control room and the deployment of the microphones in the hall.
10 Know what can be “fixed” in the post and what can’t be. Be on top of the software development, knowing what is available and what software can do what is just as important as knowing microphones and microphone techniques.
11 Yes, lastly, you also have to be able to mark on the music really fast. There is a lot going on as the music being played, whatever you can identify aurally, good or bad, right or wrong, you also have to document it, more or less in real time.

The more I think about it the more I realize; I am probably not a very good producer...



Best regards,

Da-Hong

What an amazing description of the job of a classical producer.

One of the things I love most about this forum is the occasional glimpse into the mind of "the greats" and, almost without exception, you see that "the greats" often have some humility.

Thanks Da-Hong Seetoo for a really thoughtful and practical post. That one is going in my library.

As to the pencil/paper vs. iPad debate, I am a bit of a luddite - straight up pencil in the score for me.

[Ozpeter]

I find intonation the easiest of all defects to detect. It is an absolute truth.

Woah! I suspect many musicians, if not producers, would take considerable exception to that statement. Intonation is one of the means of expressing a musician's individuality and its flexible use - within limits of course - is part of their interpretive toolset. I've heard a number of vigorous discussions between musicians and producers on this very subject, where they will attempt to delimit the grey area between right, wrong, and musician's personal intonation style.

7 You should always remember to check your own ego at home before you go to work. You are there to help making someone else’s music statement through a recording, not your own.

Indeed, vital - another way of expressing what I mentioned earlier in the thread about the artistic ownership of the recording - whose is it, the producers or the performers? - and ensuring that the matter is agreed between all parties at the outset.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

What an amazing description of the job of a classical producer.

One of the things I love most about this forum is the occasional glimpse into the mind of "the greats" and, almost without exception, you see that "the greats" often have some humility.

Thanks Da-Hong Seetoo for a really thoughtful and practical post. That one is going in my library.

Humility is a hallmark of greatness. The great need not boast as their works speak for them.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

...
Indeed, vital - another way of expressing what I mentioned earlier in the thread about the artistic ownership of the recording - whose is it, the producers or the performers? - and ensuring that the matter is agreed between all parties at the outset.

"Leaving your ego at home" is a well intentioned but ambiguous advice. There are also situations in recordings where artists need guidance, be it artistic or in a broader social context. Impossible if you have left your ego and personality at home. "I'm just here to help you" doesn't cut it in such a moment.

As always the truth lies in the well balanced middle. It's not about your ego, but you still need to have a strong personality and use it wisely.

Also we are there to serve the music, the (mostly dead) composer, as much or more than the musicians who themselves ideally should have checked their egos at home to serve music alone, but often haven't!!! In real world we often have to make wise decisions how to serve all parties the best, defending the composer against an ego driven musician, defending the musicians against greedy executive suits, and last but not least defend our own professional future with a best possible result.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by boojum

Humility is a hallmark of greatness. The great need not boast as their works speak for them.

That's not true in the "backstage" audio world. Great work will go totally unnoticed regularly. It's a tricky profession in that regard, since we are riding on the backs of horses we call performing artists and composers. You can be a mediocre rider but will still shine(be commercially successful, win awards) by riding a great horse. It's harder to get noticed for a good job the other way around,(being a great rider on a mediocre horse). Still no need to boast anything, it's just the nature of the job that we are noticed for screw ups, if it's great we disappear.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

That's not true in the "backstage" audio world. Great work will go totally unnoticed regularly. It's a tricky profession in that regard, since we are riding on the backs of horses we call performing artists and composers. You can be a mediocre rider but will still shine by riding a great horse. It's harder to get noticed for a good job the other way around. Still no need to boast anything, it's just the nature of the job that we are noticed for screw ups, if it's great we disappear.

[tacitus]

I just caught this thread on Google looking for some other stuff, but being a performer, composer, engineer and occasionally producer myself I've found the whole thread fascinating. In particular I have to confess that I've done the composer thing of preferring the "wrong note" take, but ion my defence I should say that I often recompose pieces slightly if I score them for different ensembles and if, for example, a performance of an ensemble left out a doubling I'd put in to keep players a bit busier, who am I to complain?

Other things: I fully agree with the idea of keeping the recording running whenever there's playing going on as it's saved my bacon before when sessions have got a bit emotional. I also feel that the attributes of a producer so well listed should have tact and diplomacy above all others. It's all very well to be a musical equal of the artist(s) but you're not there to perform but to make sure somebody else's performance is captured at its best.

Finally, if time permits, I try to cool off after a recording for a few days then do a cold listen before I start editing. The fresh perspective often makes me change my mind about some details of the takes - not that wrong notes magically disappear, but multiple acceptable takes can come into a different focus and occasionally I've been so stunned by takes with glitches in that I've done some serious patching to be able to use them.

Sorry, wandered a bit OT there but it's all connected with how you annotate what you've recorded.

[Gritter]

Some really good information here. I find this thread very interesting. I have been using Notion for the Ipad which I'm finding to be a very useful app for composing. The tips on this thread will be very helpful. Thanks!