ribbons on strings

[lowswing]

i often hear how people like micin strings with ribbons.
latlely i had a session with quartet and a solo violinst, i tried to mic with a stereo set of beyer m160, it sounded great but even with 70db(!!!) of preamp gain i wasn't able to drive my daw more than -18db! How do you do it? the same goes to thebeyer as room mics for a jazz combo, any tips?
guy

[bloodstone]

Originally posted by lowswing
i often hear how people like micin strings with ribbons.
latlely i had a session with quartet and a solo violinst, i tried to mic with a stereo set of beyer m160, it sounded great but even with 70db(!!!) of preamp gain i wasn't able to drive my daw more than -18db! How do you do it? the same goes to thebeyer as room mics for a jazz combo, any tips?
guy

You bring up an interesting point. I always thought that you had to peak near "digital 0" with your signal levels or there would be a loss of sonic quality/depth. There was a recent thread on recording.org (sorry, I don't have the link) in which a fairly knowledgeable chap agrued that all you had to send into the digital domain was whatever level your preamp device yielded at "+4/Analog 0". He stated that hot levels were only necessary if you're recording into a 16 bit digital system (to avoid noise issues). I own a few ribbons myself, and used to get really frustrated when using some 40db analog pres that I have. Don't know if there's any truth to the argument that ultra-hot levels aren't necessary, and I'd be curious to see what more knowledgeable people have to say. I believe analog 0 is -16 db, isn't it? You're not that far away. what kind of pres are you using?

[lowswing]

thanks for your reply.
I usealy using telefunken v676 since they give upto 70 db of gain.

[ISedlacek]

I also heard about ribbons being good on strings. I have two pairs of Schoeps (MK4V and MK21) and since I have no opportunity to try ribbons here, I wonder whether ribbons may be still better than Schoeps, or Schoeps are more than good for this application and I should have quiet sleep...

[fifthcircle]

Ribbons do indeed sound great on strings. I have 3 Beyer 160s and I rarely have gain issues with them. First of all, how long are your cables? If you are over 150 ft or so, you're going to start having major problems. Over here, I use Boulder Twin Servo Pres (Similar to the Hardy Twin Servos) or Panasonic WRAD96M digital preamps...

I wouldn't use 160s as room mics... Just don't really do it for me. I prefer condensers or other ribbons (Coles, B&O, Spieden/Royer).

For a jazz/pop tracking situation (and an early music ensemble I've recorded a bunch of times), I place the mics a couple feet (~3 perhaps?) over top of the instrument. I hate that position with condensers as it picks up too much "grit" in the sound. When I use them for string soloists in front of an orchestra, I place the mic about 3-4 feet off the ground in front of the player. Gets a very mellow sound with more of the fundamental and less of the bow sound on the string...


--Ben

[lowswing]

thanx for your reply ben.
Where do u place the m160 when recordin strings? do you talk about a section or individual instruments?
when I tried to track a solo violin with the m160 i placed it ca 3feet a way from playe and 2 feet above, maybe it is too far away since I couldn't drive my daw...

[quadwould]

Lowswing,
i have had great results with a Royer r121 on both violin and viola. and without maxing out the mic pre. but as i tried your placement approach, i also noticed insufficient level, so i moved the mics closer.... alot closer... in the end. i have the mic on the violin 4 inches from the bowing hand of the player and 6 inches for the viola. the results were beautiful.

[lowswing]

so ribbon for close miking strings?

[Roland]

Ribbons are great for strings amongst many other things. Not the choice for every situation, but perfect for some. Also you will find that almost all ribbon mics are figure of 8 polar response so they can be used to get very good isolation.

Regards



Roland

[7rojo7]

160s are hyper cardioid, very close they will exhibit proximity effect, as will any figure 8 mic.. This is a sound also, on violin it could be a choice so as to not having to touch the eq knobs. I like 160s, 260s and 500s on trumpets and flugl horns or even a top mic. for some saxophones, the hi-end is smooth, good for strings too. 500s really make it on some vocals.
Hyper cardiod for room mics should be placed 1" from and facing a wall to take advantage of the boundary effect, works even better with figure 8.
I've used ribbons with great success with about 55dB (neve 1066) of gain and a little bit of help from a compressor used as a line amp (makeup gain) this way you don't get the noise that's at the bottom of the pre, which is a little different than the noise at the lower gain settings and get a good level to the converter (tape). The level issue is more about resolution than noise. It's important to calibrate your devices and to understand which types of levels you're looking at, peak or vu. You can have peaks way above the vu level. If you have peaks at -18 your vu level could easily be as lo as - 27. I used to calibrate my old 888 to -12=0dB, I don't have that luxury anymore so I've gone to - 15. My peaks would hit at around -3, -2. I believe this is the classic approach to this problem. There's a big problem with highly compressed material at high levels, if something is highly compressed it should be recorded at a lower level

[C.Lambrechts]

the nice thing about ribbons is that you can go close to the source without getting a harsh condensor like type of sound.

Reasons for these are : resonance frequency of a ribbon is in the low end (lower then 500 Hz) ... condensors have high resonance frequencies (higher then 15k).

Most ribbons start cutting higher then 15k ... older models like RCA etc even lower.

take a trumpet for example and put a condensor and a ribbon within a couple of inches of the instruments horn. You'll immediately notice the difference. A good ribbon can take it ... a condensor can't imho.

Downside would be that if you want to use a ribbon out in the room ... you need A LOT of gain. I don't like them for that. For me a ribbon is for proximity use and very suitable for high dynamics. Winds / percussion.

As allways milages vary a lot of course and it is just my humble couple of cents.

[toolstudio]

Hi,

as ribbons I only use Royer 121s and they need a lot of gain, but something aroung 55 or 60, 70 dB should be more then enough.
You can go nearer to the source, but the bass/proximity effect will be stronger.

I really like the ribbons on strings, but not as a complete orchester overhead, I use them on sections and cellos.

wolfgang