Stereo Backup advice needed...

[mosrite]

Ok guys would really appreciate your help on this one (as always!).

Ive got an important location session coming up and know that there is no way I can do it without running a backup.

My rig for this is the Amek DMCL into Pro Tools LE on a laptop. The Ameks digital card outputs simultaneously on AES / SPDIF and TOSLINK. Im running the SPDIF into the laptop which leaves the AES and TOSLINK outs available. Also, I am only recording 2 channels so a stereo recorder will be sufficiant. Im recording at good ol' 44.1 so the higher sampling frequencies are not required. Ive already blown nearly all my dosh on other kit so price has to be low.

The problem is that the Amek digital card only outputs at 24bit res. This means I cant take advantage of all the dirt cheap 16bit DAT players doing the rounds at the moment (I know there was a 24bit DAT recorder at some point but cant find it anywhere - at least not cheap). I presume I will find the same problem with CD recorders (I heard they dither to 16bit, thats better than truncating with a DAT machine though I suppose).

So, are there any stereo 24bit capable recorders available that accept AES or TOSLINK or any cheap outboard dither devices to enable me to use a DAT?

Appreciated,
mosrite.

[fifthcircle]

Any of the flash card recorders out there will do it....

Been playing around with a M-Audio microtrack for exactly that lately. Certainly not high-end, but it is great as a backup recorder fed digitally...


--Ben

[mosrite]

Ben,

thanks for your suggestion, much appreciated.

I just had a look at that device and I dont think it takes TOSLINK or AES/EBU digital input (only SPDIF coaxial). The problem is that I am using the SPDIF coax out on the Amek for the Pro Tools digital transfer (which leaves only the TOSLINK or AES/EBU as possibilities for a second 'backup' transfer).

Also, am i right in assuming that you cant go beyond 1gig in a flash card? Im not sure if that will be enough as the session could be around 2-3 hours of 44.1/24bit. I also reckon a few 1gig cards will up the price somewhat.

The m-audio is also pretty pricey here (about £320 - around $550). For a fair bit less I could get a CD recorder but will still have to face the dithering issue.

Any other ideas? Im hoping that there is some mobile device out there (perhaps HD based) that will cater for this. Or an older device that wont truncate a 24bit signal?

[Rick Sutton]

Just curious, how many inputs are you using? Is there an analog output available from your mixer?

[Remoteness]

If the size of the device does not matter much, the Tascam DVRA1000 would make an excellent main or backup stereo recorder.

And like Rick suggested if applicable go with the analog output of you mixer.

[T.RayBullard]

The marantz pmd 671 or/tascam hdp2 is a good choice. www.oade.com (Doug Oade, the owner) sells both and mods them both for greatly enhanced performance. They sound phenomenal as a backup or as a main recorder. Easy to use...or in a pinch the nomad jukebox 3 will work, though it truncates....(doesnt sound bad either)

Teddy

Originally Posted by mosrite

Ok guys would really appreciate your help on this one (as always!).

Ive got an important location session coming up and know that there is no way I can do it without running a backup.

My rig for this is the Amek DMCL into Pro Tools LE on a laptop. The Ameks digital card outputs simultaneously on AES / SPDIF and TOSLINK. Im running the SPDIF into the laptop which leaves the AES and TOSLINK outs available. Also, I am only recording 2 channels so a stereo recorder will be sufficiant. Im recording at good ol' 44.1 so the higher sampling frequencies are not required. Ive already blown nearly all my dosh on other kit so price has to be low.

The problem is that the Amek digital card only outputs at 24bit res. This means I cant take advantage of all the dirt cheap 16bit DAT players doing the rounds at the moment (I know there was a 24bit DAT recorder at some point but cant find it anywhere - at least not cheap). I presume I will find the same problem with CD recorders (I heard they dither to 16bit, thats better than truncating with a DAT machine though I suppose).

So, are there any stereo 24bit capable recorders available that accept AES or TOSLINK or any cheap outboard dither devices to enable me to use a DAT?

Appreciated,
mosrite.

[Jim vanBergen]

Alesis Masterlink is an easy, inexpensive choice. Not the best, but capable of AES-EBU 24 bit no problem, and no limit on recording time (well, both mine are 51 hours or something like that). Not ideal, but cheap and consistent. Also burns a 16 bit render right away.

[ghellquist]

I think you will find a bunch of ideas at the taperssection.com forum. Seems like quite a few tapers (stealthing shows) uses digital recorders.

Personally I like the Sound Devices 722 for what you are describing. Well, I like Ferrari cars as well, only cannot afford them.

Gunnar

[mosrite]

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for your suggestions. The problem is that all of the devices that you mention, while certainly great for the task at hand, are way over my budget.

Maybe I am expecting the impossible but I was rather hoping that in this day and age there might be a cheaper solution.

Alesis Masterlink is an easy, inexpensive choice

This seems to be the least expensive option but in the UK it still goes for around £500 (compared to second hand DATs at around £150 at the moment).

Just curious, how many inputs are you using? Is there an analog output available from your mixer?

Sorry I didnt mention this. yes I could take the line outs from the Amek (mixer) and pass them into a recorder. The only problem then is I would be using the ADC's of the recorder (and the ones in the Amek are pretty tasty). I guess if there was a DAT or other recorder with renowned ADCs then I might be able to accept that scenario...

If the size of the device does not matter much, the Tascam DVRA1000 would make an excellent main or backup stereo recorder.

If money wasnt an issue then I would jump at that Tascam, looks fantastic. And no size isnt an issue

There is a Tascam CDRW750 selling here for around £300 ($500) but as far as I can tell it wont record at 24bit (does any CD recorder??). I presume that will mean it will internally dither the signal?

[mosrite]

Also, regards clocking would the device automatically slave to the Amek dig board? Is this even an issue? I know for example that the Tascam Cd recorder has no word clock functionality. Thanks

[pkautzsch]

How about renting something just for the day of recording (and the day after, if something DOES happen)? When it's one or two sessions, this will be a lot cheaper.

Wouldn't worry too much about the backup's converters. I mean, it's just a backup, and even IF anything happens, it's not likely that all data are lost, but rather a short piece of the recording. Nobody except audio guys will hear that (and nobody will know that it's a backup). Before I had access to that D2424, I did my backups as a live mixdown. Sometimes needed them for half a second, and sometimes even couldn't tell myself just by listening after a week or two. Live recordings are sooo noisy because of audience and environment.

[mosrite]

How about renting something just for the day of recording (and the day after, if something DOES happen)? When it's one or two sessions, this will be a lot cheaper.

I had certainly considered this. But im going to have a good few sessions in the coming months so it could get expensive. Of course if there isnt a device out there in my budget anyway then this fact will be irrelevent...

Live recordings are sooo noisy because of audience and environment.

Sorry I should have said, this is a classical quartet without audience for a potential commercial release (with seriously quiet passages).

I could always get a cheap second hand DAT recorder and use its internal ADC but Im not convinced that the quality would mix with that of the Ameks ADC if a section was lost through the DAW?

[celticrogues]

Originally Posted by mosrite

Sorry I should have said, this is a classical quartet without audience for a potential commercial release (with seriously quiet passages).

If I'm reading this correctly it means that your recording is more of a session than a live performance. If this is the case, it would make the need for a backup recorder less important, as you could always get the performers to play a section over again if something happens to your rig. Likely in this case the backup recording will never be used.
Good Luck,
-Mike

[mosrite]

If I'm reading this correctly it means that your recording is more of a session than a live performance. If this is the case, it would make the need for a backup recorder less important, as you could always get the performers to play a section over again if something happens to your rig. Likely in this case the backup recording will never be used.
Good Luck,
-Mike

Mike, I would love for that to be the case but: I am personally attached to this project financially with one of the musicians. The rest of the quartet are hired guns and they dont come cheap. Lets imagine a scenario where I get everything into the Laptop and on the way home it: a)gets stolen b)gets covered in beer c)I drop it d)any other nightmare scenario you can imagine. Or the HD screws up or...I wont go on. This is an expensive one shot scenario hence the need for a backup, I wouldnt be able to relax otherwise I can tell you!

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by mosrite

Ben,

thanks for your suggestion, much appreciated.

I just had a look at that device and I dont think it takes TOSLINK or AES/EBU digital input (only SPDIF coaxial). The problem is that I am using the SPDIF coax out on the Amek for the Pro Tools digital transfer (which leaves only the TOSLINK or AES/EBU as possibilities for a second 'backup' transfer).

Also, am i right in assuming that you cant go beyond 1gig in a flash card? Im not sure if that will be enough as the session could be around 2-3 hours of 44.1/24bit. I also reckon a few 1gig cards will up the price somewhat.

The m-audio is also pretty pricey here (about £320 - around $550). For a fair bit less I could get a CD recorder but will still have to face the dithering issue.

Any other ideas? Im hoping that there is some mobile device out there (perhaps HD based) that will cater for this. Or an older device that wont truncate a 24bit signal?

I go into it off an AES input all the time... I use an XLR-RCA adapter to do that... Works fine. Also I use 4 GB CF card on it. Gives you 4 hours at 24B/48K

Can't believe how expensive it is there... I just paid $350 for mine and another couple hundred bucks for the CF cards.

--Ben

[mosrite]

Can't believe how expensive it is there... I just paid $350 for mine and another couple hundred bucks for the CF cards.

Yeah tell me about it! Didnt realise I could use one of those convertors which does still make it a possiblity.

It seems that (unless anyone has any other suggestions):

1. I get a CD recorder and live with its internal dithering algorithm to go 24 to 16bit

2. I get a CD recorder or DAT recorder and use their own (inferior) ADCs

3. I get a flash device like the M-audio (but spend a fair bit more)

Are there any reasons not to go for the CD recorder when these are the options? Also, what is the deal with clocking it. Will any device simply automatically slave to master when a digital device is plugged into it (using the clock signal from an SPDIF data stream)?

[sonare]

As important as it seems to you to run a backup, I cannot believe you are ready to accept 16-bit sound!

The M-Audio is available from several vendors on ebay and I am sure they will ship to the UK. For that matter, hire a unit from Classic Sound or one of many rental houses.

Rich

[Remoteness]

Amen to that... Rich is totally on point!

16 bit -- if employed should be used as your backup to the (24 bit) backup just for the freak of it.

Food for thought -- 16 bit IS better than no backup but, it's really not a true backup. Its must be the same sampling frequency and bit rate be a genuine backup.

[mosrite]

Food for thought -- 16 bit IS better than no backup but, it's really not a true backup. Its must be the same sampling frequency and bit rate be a genuine backup

You're right of course, It needed pointing out like that, thanks.

I guess even if there are any 24bit CD recorders or DATS out there they would be more expensive. I'll look into the M-audio device, thanks folks.

[Remoteness]

Tascam made a DA45 24 bit DAT... You may be able to find them used somewhere.

[celticrogues]

You could also try somtehing like this to open up a few more options - it will convert your AES or Toslink to S/PDIF

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/CO3-main.html

Cheers,
-Mike

[mosrite]

Thanks for all your advice folks. What Ive decided to do is hire a Masterlink or similar for this gig and then, money depending, bite the bullet and get some kind of HD recorder. Anyone got a suggestion for that? I looked at the Alesis HD24 but its ADAT only it seems and I only really need a stereo device. But I dig the idea of removable drives. Any suggestions?

[sonare]

See your private messages--

Rich

[desotoslo]

Pardon the bump of an old thread, but I wanted to ask if it's possible to output from the Macbook digital out while simultaneously outputting to a firewire interface?

please and thanks for help.

[sonare]

I can only speak for the 2.33GHz 17" MBP but it should be possible to outpui off the optical SPDIF and simultaneously do whatever you'd like on the FW buss. It might be better to use the PC34 bus rather than the actual FW400/800 buss. If you decide to try that, the SIIG devices utilize the TI chipset so you are less likely to have problems. My version of the MBP is the only one to use TI.

Unfortunately the only way to know for sure with this sort of thing is try it...

Rich

[RobAnderson]

Sorry to reply so late on this thread. I wanted to address the original poster's problem.

To convert an AES signal to SPDIF is easy and not too expensive. I use this:

Hosa CDL313 Data Link: Coaxial (RCA) to AES/EBU (XLR) | Full Compass

For my 2-TR rig I have a Mytek converter which has SPDIF, AES and ADAT out. I connect the SPIDF to my main machine (Tascam HD-P2) and run the AES through this Hosa converter to the SPDIF input of the M-Audio Microtrack.

[desotoslo]

Thanks, Rich! By the way, I realized an obvious and important truth... that backing up from my MBP directly ain't a good idea... if that crashes (or even if Logic crashes), the backup feed crashes.

This is making me look at outputting from my SPDIF on my firewire device into something like the Microtrack.

Any thoughts on that?

Cheers and thanks!!

[Daniel Stark]

not sure if this has been pointed out, but the m-audio apparently truncates incoming 24-bit s/pdif data to 16 bit. tough to find reliable info on this point as m-audio is understandably vague on it.

[desotoslo]

Originally Posted by Daniel Stark

not sure if this has been pointed out, but the m-audio apparently truncates incoming 24-bit s/pdif data to 16 bit. tough to find reliable info on this point as m-audio is understandably vague on it.

Interesting... is there a portable flash recorder that *does* accept 24 bit and is in the same price range?

[fifthcircle]

Like to see the proof on that. That is a pretty damning claim. Please don't make them unless you have the proof of it. That is not exactly what I have seen from numerous recordings made on microtracks.

--Ben