What's this aversion of laptops here?

[Bibster]

Hi gang,

In RobAnderson's thread and in many other threads, I've remarked a strong aversion of laptops (in this section of the forum).

Why is this? Many people, in other sections, use them even as main tool for live (DJs and such) producing of sounds.
While WE are only recording, not pushing plugins to their limits etc.


Do you think laptops are more crash-prone than desktops? Or is this an aversion against 'puters, not specifically laptops?

Personnally I use an old G4 iBook (yes) and I record 12 tracks in 48/16. Limiting factor is the drive's speed/throughput.

Key to succes: Use the laptop ONLY for recording. NOTHING else. (Do NOT browse gearsluts while recording, like HBphotoAV does ) do NOT install anything whatsoever, just your soft for recording (And old version of logic express in my case).
(and don't use windows.. :-)


The tradeoff is worth it, I think: Spend mony on a real computer for producing (laptops tend to be deerer than equivalent desktop machines) and use that old laptop for on-location, where the diff. in weight and size is the main factor.

Just my thoughts, would love to hear yours!

P.

[NorseHorse]

Driver issues. Hard drive crashes. Unexpected scans and updates. Mystery bugs. Extended set-up time. A/D Interfaces.

Yes, it can be done, and many recordists with a studio-like workflow need to have one. However, I don't need it, I've been happier without.

Yes, same goes for DESKTOPS, except they have an additional count against them -- they are big.

[Bibster]

Same counts for desktop PC's, right?

[tourtelot]

Originally Posted by Bibster

Key to succes: Use the laptop ONLY for recording. NOTHING else. (Do NOT browse gearsluts while recording, like HBphotoAV does ) do NOT install anything whatsoever, just your soft for recording (And old version of logic express in my case).
(and don't use windows.. :-)

I think this is a solid plan.

I used my everyday MacBook for a recording a few weeks back using a MH ULN8 and a MH 2882 and it did indeed crash. I have since gotten a dedicated MBP but I am still a bit nervous about it's ability to be "bombproof."

I have been using my Sound Devices 788T instead and it has been perfect. But it doesn't have the flexibility of the ULN8 and MIO Console for doing more complicated remotes so I will get my courage up and try the laptop out again soon.

I WILL be backing up the work on the 788T (or at least 8 tracks of it!)

There is nothing on the MBP but MIO Console, a copy or Reaper for on location, quick, editing and rendering and some wave file housekeeping tools. That's it!

Sort of bums me a bit that this really fast and capable laptop is being so lightly taxed but, whatever. I NEVER want to experience a crash in the middle of a performance again.

D.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Driver issues. Hard drive crashes. Unexpected scans and updates. Mystery bugs. Extended set-up time. A/D Interfaces.

Yes, it can be done, and many recordists with a studio-like workflow need to have one. However, I don't need it, I've been happier without.

Yes, same goes for DESKTOPS, except they have an additional count against them -- they are big.

Agreed.

I use a dedicated recorder for recording and a computer for editing and mastering.

If the computer does something silly while editing, it's not a big problem as you still have the original files.

If it does it while you are recording, you are stuffed.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Driver issues. Hard drive crashes. Unexpected scans and updates. Mystery bugs. Extended set-up time. A/D Interfaces.

No aversion here at all.
I've been recording with Windows (!) laptops for many years, and none of this was ever an issue... Well, one specific setup occasionally crashed (dongle connected to a Cardbus USB interface, not to the onboard USB, when the machine still ran Windows ME), but it worked with XP, and I don't use this laptop anymore. Else, my fairly outdated Toshiba Tecra 9000 and Acer Extensa 5220 laptops have always been very reliable.

A well-configured computer does not just "do something silly" on its own, be it desktop or laptop.

That said, no harm running a backup...

[LX3]

I've been recording with laptops on and off since I started in this game. My experience is that they work. Most of the time. Other times you get burned, sometimes horribly.

Although there are steps you can take to make a laptop more dependable, in my experience, dedicated hardware multitrack recorders and "desktop" (or in my case, rackmount) PCs have been much more reliable.

Nevertheless, there are plenty of occasions where a laptop is still the way to go, but in any situation where your career depends upon a successful recording, I would never use a laptop without a second full multitrack system (ideally not another laptop!). No matter how reliable you believe it to be. The day you think your laptop will work without a glitch will be the day it freaks out on you.

That said, any piece of hardware can freak out on you... so I'd never record without a backup anyway. But IME laptops have let me down ten times more often than other recording hardware.

[RobAnderson]

I've used "dedicated" Mac laptops for many years and custom built my own PC desktops for mixing and editing. I have been bitten enough times to develop a healthy sense of distrust for computers.

There are just too many moving parts in the operating system, between the recording software, the drivers, the interface, the recording HDD, the system drive, the cabling, updates clashing, drivers clashing, etc. etc. The machine itself is deigned to do many different things, and in no case is an operating system like OSX or Windows specifically designed with audio production in mind.

A DJ or electronic musician IS the show - if they have a technical problem, they deal with it as part of the performance. If I am being paid to capture a show and my recorder stops in the middle - even for a second - the job is ruined, as could be my reputation.

Now you would be right in saying that a dedicated HDD recorder has many of the same things, but these are all designed with one purpose in mind and do only one thing.

Even so, I would always run two.

I still use a laptop for recording sessions, and occasionally as a multi-track backup when I recording more than 24 tracks, but I will never trust it. No matter how many times it works, there is always that ONE time...

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

There are just too many moving parts in the operating system, between the recording software, the drivers, the interface, the recording HDD, the system drive, the cabling, updates clashing, drivers clashing, etc. etc. The machine itself is deigned to do many different things, and in no case is an operating system like OSX or Windows specifically designed with audio production in mind.

None of this needs to be an issue, practically all unnecessary background activity can be configured away, or potentially problematic devices like WLAN adapters deactivated. There is no inherent reason why a good and correctly set up laptop shouldn't be able to record multitrack audio for many hours withouth so much as the slightes glitch.

If I am being paid to capture a show and my recorder stops in the middle - even for a second - the job is ruined, as could be my reputation.

Only if you work without backup...

Now you would be right in saying that a dedicated HDD recorder has many of the same things

The one thing I would personally fear most is hard drive failure, which affects HDD recorders as well...

[Petrus]

I use a HP laptop for recording, but: it has never been connected to the internet, it has no firewalls or virus scan software, and everything unnecessary that I can think of is turned off permanently. I have not had any glitches yet.

[jnorman]

i use a dedicated thinkpad t410 (i7) which has absolutely nothing on it but reaper. it is rock solid. it never hurts to have a bit-bucket backup though...

[Plush]

I am using a tape recorder to make the recording because it is only made to do that one thing.

The laptop is made to do many things and the inside of a computer is a hostile environment for audio.

I have begun this year to implement and use a laptop for a back-up recording on site. I am using SADiE V6 with a RME Babyface.

[Rolo 46]

Computers, like my 8 cart Epson Photo printer also, are highly strung mares, who occasionally bolt at a slight event.
My Sound Devices solid state recorder has no such vices
Its only fault, a dislike of very cold mornings and a visual display that is slow to awake, this is understandable as I suffer the same foibles.
My Sonosax SX mixer hates strong sunshine (I love it) and some of my mikes dont like the damp ,who does?
Quirky bunch.

[rumleymusic]

I use a Lenovo Think Pad W520. Solid, reliable laptop. However, the last session recording I had on location. I spent 45 minutes trying to get my computer to load without a blue screen because of the audio interface drivers. Very embarrassing to say the least.

Laptops are fine, but never downplay the usefulness of a dedicated device, or the necessity of a backup.

[AndyVanDerVught]

No aversion here!

I use a laptop for recording and never had any glitches (yet).

Like others said a laptop is meant to do many things. On my laptop everything that isn't absolutely necessary is not used/installed, which means less chance on crashes or other interruptions.

[philper]

I did a great deal of fairly high-pressure high-track-count live recording on laptops w/ interfaces for many years, and they mostly worked fine--no major failures, a few glitches. I used dedicated laptops, as lean as I could make them, and learned via testing and experience what drives worked well and how much I could tax them. I didn't really have computer problems so much as firewire and interfaces issues, when I had them, as well as cabling etc. The truth for me, at the moment, is that recording with a dedicated recorder is simpler and lets me focus more on audio and client service. I'm talking about recordings with around 24 tracks.

phil p

[Jim Williams]

Laptops are fine for gigs where it's ok to fail. I used one once and it was the last time too. You don't get second chances live.

I'll stick with the old reliable Alesis HD24XR's. I can run backups on those but never needed to. 105 degrees out in the desert, 30 degrees on top on a ski resort, no matter, those buggers are like the energizer bunny.

If the client has an audio hair up their butts I can jack in any outboard converter and it's bit accurate. In that regard it's future proof. I'm installing some SATA/IDE converters this week and will try out the solid state drives. If those work, no mechanical worries anymore.

[Foldedpath]

I'm gradually moving towards the laptop aversion camp, at least for remote recording. Right now I'm recording on a Lenovo laptop via RME interface with a hardware DR-680 backup, but I'm aiming to ditch the laptop in the near future. I'll either get another DR-680 or an RME UFX (using it in standalone mode).

Hardware recorders like the DR-680 and the big brothers from SD and Nagra just work. They boot up in an instant, the controls are simple, and the UI is designed to be bomb-proof (even if it does mean certain things are annoying, like not being able to immediately delete a bad take). The recorders don't require much thought, other than setting levels and making sure you're actually in record mode. During setup, that allows more mental energy dedicated to mic placement and client relations. During the actual recording, I can concentrate more on what the performers are doing, when I'm not constantly monitoring the health and stability of a laptop.

Also, and maybe this is a minor point, but when I have to set up in the sight-line of the audience (which occasionally happens), one or two small field recorders is much lower profile than a big glowing laptop screen. I try to disappear into the background whenever I can, and a laptop doesn't help with that.

[boojum]

The main reason I have not started using a laptop is the horror stories I have read on this board, not just this thread. It only has to fail once and then it is "Oooops!"

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by LX3

Nevertheless, there are plenty of occasions where a laptop is still the way to go, but in any situation where your career depends upon a successful recording, I would never use a laptop without a second full multitrack system (ideally not another laptop!).

In a case like that, I would use two laptops and a dedicated recorder (a Fostex D-160 mostly)...
But then you have three recorders running, and suddenly there is a totally inexplicable and non-reproducible click or other disturbance somewhere in the MADI setup between preamps and recorders...

Originally Posted by Plush

The laptop is made to do many things and the inside of a computer is a hostile environment for audio.

IMHO all these many things can be stopped and the laptop taught do foucus on recording... And audio inside the computer becomes data, for which this is not so much of a hostile environment.

[philper]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Laptops are fine for gigs where it's ok to fail. I used one once and it was the last time too. You don't get second chances live.

I'll stick with the old reliable Alesis HD24XR's. I can run backups on those but never needed to. 105 degrees out in the desert, 30 degrees on top on a ski resort, no matter, those buggers are like the energizer bunny.

If the client has an audio hair up their butts I can jack in any outboard converter and it's bit accurate. In that regard it's future proof. I'm installing some SATA/IDE converters this week and will try out the solid state drives. If those work, no mechanical worries anymore.

Please post how the SSDs work out for you w/ HD24--that could be a great combo for live work.

phil p

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Bibster

Hi gang,

...

Key to succes: Use the laptop ONLY for recording. NOTHING else. (Do NOT browse gearsluts while recording, like HBphotoAV does ) do NOT install anything whatsoever, just your soft for recording (And old version of logic express in my case).
(and don't use windows.. :-)

...

Just my thoughts, would love to hear yours!

P.

Errrrmmm... a wee bit closer look at the photo involved, and a careful reading of the description, would reveal that the surfing was being done on my new-ish iPad... the MacBook Pro was running one presentation (housekeeping) while the Dell onstage was running a presentation for the speaker.

It's OK. I do this stuff for a living...

Love recording on the MBP (with every process "off" but Logic) to an external SATA drive... also love that the MBP is backed up by a HD24.

HB

[Bibster]

hey,

Cool answers, really understandable use-cases pro AND anti. Just what I thought I'd see.

The aversion, if you have it, is thus against 'puters, and as laptops are way more transportable that desktops, it is against laptops.

Once you're at the level of 'I can't afford to screw up' (i.e. you're PRO, having your kids eat of your recording bidness) there are many options available other that computers, as many of you stated. Still, a laptop could be one of the n systems recording.

Most wise words say something along the line of 'use xx device, as it's date to do ONLY this', be it tape or SSD or HD.

As JimWilliams says:

Laptops are fine for gigs where it's ok to fail.

but the continues in the same breath

I used one once and it was the last time too. You don't get second chances live.

(You made me laugh!)

I conclude: laptops, and by extension, computers, are OK (without a backup system), but only, and only if you're allowed to screw up.
And: dedicated systems are way more reliable.

Thanks, cool discussion,

Paul

[Bibster]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Errrrmmm... a wee bit closer look at the photo involved, and a careful reading of the description, would reveal that the surfing was being done on my new-ish iPad...

I remembered the reply under the photo, so I thought it would be a nice joke.

But it illustrates (even if it's NOT true) the sort of thing not to do with your dedicated recording laptop.

That said, I'd never rely 100% on a computer, my job forbids it! For critical systems, we run // systems in europe & states... Talk about backup systems

P.

[Foldedpath]

Originally Posted by d_fu

In a case like that, I would use two laptops and a dedicated recorder (a Fostex D-160 mostly)...
But then you have three recorders running, and suddenly there is a totally inexplicable and non-reproducible click or other disturbance somewhere in the MADI setup between preamps and recorders...

The analog part of the recording chain (mics and preamps) is more reliable than the digital side. As long as you're backed up on the digital side (including A/D conversion), that type of thing shouldn't ruin the entire recording. On the other hand, if you're using preamps integrated with A/D conversion in the same box, and that's your only input, then yeah... you could be screwed.

That's why I use outboard, standalone preamps for the main recording channels, with splits to two digital recording systems. Everything digital, including A/D conversion, happens in two places on (currently) two different systems. There's no room for a MADI or Firewire error in that setup that would affect both recorders the same way. Any single-point failure on the analog side -- mics, cables, outboard preamps -- is something that's likely to be evident, and correctable, during setup. That's the theory, anyway. So far, it's working.

[Studiodawg]

A well-tuned laptop works fine. Everything (pro & con) in this thread seems to be inconclusive conjecture and opinion. I will continue to use both computer-based, stand-alone digital and analog recording gear for whatever the situation calls for. Location recordings these days are laptop based both Mac & Win. Have fun and good luck to all of you!

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Foldedpath

That's why I use outboard, standalone preamps for the main recording channels, with splits to two digital recording systems. Everything digital, including A/D conversion, happens in two places on (currently) two different systems.

Somewhat OT here, but fairly wise indeed. So far, I usually split digitally, and this kind of thing only happened once. No idea why and how, and I think I was able to fix it - oh yes, I remember... It was dropouts of a few samples in a few places and I think I patched them with audio from my video camera that was placed in the audience...

There's no room for a MADI or Firewire error in that setup that would affect both recorders the same way.

Can't really compare the two...

Any single-point failure on the analog side -- mics, cables, outboard preamps -- is something that's likely to be evident, and correctable, during setup.

Still unpleasant if a preamp fails minutes before a concert - fortunately, I had another preamp/AD setup with me...

D.

[RobAnderson]

I've only been at this for a few years, but at some point or another I have had every single stage in the chain go bad: mic's, cables, snake channels, splitter channels, preamp channels, converters suffering from dropouts or clock errors, recorders failing, etc. etc.

The one thing that has bit me in the a$$ most often is a laptop.

I know how to disable things. I know not to install all kinds of things other than the software and drivers I use. I am not just some cat who takes a laptop out of the box and expects it to work as is, or who figures that he can just use his old email and office machine to do some live recording.

If you've never had an issue - well good for you! As far as I am concerned there are three types of on-location recording engineers: those who have had problems recording with their laptop, those who will have a problem recording with their laptop, and those who will never have a problem recording with the laptop because they refuse to use one.

The fact that I have to remember to disable things (or that I must figure out exactly what to disable) is another point of potential failure in an already complex chain.

With a dedicated machine, I turn the machine on, arm the tracks and go - no wireless networking to worry about, no mysterious driver issues, no weird hiccups by the recording software. I am not saying a dedicated recorder can't fail - there's just less to go wrong.

I ALWAYS run redundant recorders. When one of them is a laptop, I pray a little harder and sweat a little more.

YMMV

[Ozpeter]

Before using a laptop for location recording, I'd recommend recording at home to soak test it - for hours and hours over days and days. Also use the DPC Latency Checker utility before doing anything else - that can show up problems at the outset that may otherwise not be suspected.

I gave up laptop recording when I found that every now and then mine would just stop dead for exactly 10 seconds, then carry on. I'm not sure I ever found what was doing it. When testing at home I'd start it at an exact minute, then after a few hours see whether the recording length still matched real time. Every now and then there would be that 10" difference...

Effing computers!

[philper]

Originally Posted by Studiodawg

A well-tuned laptop works fine. Everything (pro & con) in this thread seems to be inconclusive conjecture and opinion. I will continue to use both computer-based, stand-alone digital and analog recording gear for whatever the situation calls for. Location recordings these days are laptop based both Mac & Win. Have fun and good luck to all of you!

Well, as for me, I'm not conjecturing at all! All real world experience on real jobs with money flowing in the right direction! (Towards me!) Opinion based on experience, as with most of the posters in this thread. As with any live recording system, you decide what your comfort level is, what the client budget will afford, do your testing, and off you go!

phil p