What's this aversion of laptops here?

[Jim Williams]

For the price of one laptop loaded with the software, hardware, interfaces etc, you can get 3 or 4 HD24XR's.

I figure if you run 3 or 4 of them, one of them is going to work out ok. 3 backups ought to be enough?

That's far less than the $14,000 Radar 96. Radars are also so noisy you can't use them close to any sound source. They also use a PC motherboard insides so it's still a dedicated computer with all those potential scenereos.

[RobAnderson]

I have to snicker a little at some of the posts that say something on the order of "the laptop has always been reliable, except for that one time..."

Yes - everything can fail, as many here have pointed out. It's just that there are so many more things that can go wrong, and perhaps most importantly, so many chances for operator error, which can often be the weakest link in the chain (at least in my case).

Some catastrophic tales:

My old PowerBook suffered from the overheating issue, and that was its major downfall, though I managed to crash the DAW I was using once when I accidentally hit the "Sample Rate" button on my AD16 instead of the "Clear Overs" button.

Using Sequoia on someone else's MacBook Pro (fortunately as a backup to an HD24), for some reason it did not occur to me that one had to disable the Wireless Networking card in Windows OS after having done so in the OSX partition (I know - rather stupid). Needless to say, the backup recording was so full of errors as to be useless.

But these do not explain the problems I have had with various drivers or with DAW software that simply was not up to task, spitting out DAE errors or CPU overload errors, or just plain errors in the digital audio stream.

[rumleymusic]

One week after I bought my new laptop, my old one (Lenovo T400), which my wife was using, decided to fry itself (malfunctioning disk drive, followed by battery failure, followed by power connector failure). They really are ticking time bombs. Luckily I tossed the last one before it blew. If you have never had a catastrophic failure, you just have not lived long enough.

[boojum]

One reason, and a big one, is when I was doing a four track recording of a chamber group (MS on the quartet, AB on the piano) I tripped over the mic cables back stage and pulled both linked SD 722's off the chair they were on. They were recording. They landed on the ground with a thump, not heard in the audience, and did not miss a beat. It was a singular incident. I was just careless. But I do not want think about the laptop and associated hardware crashing to the floor while recording.

As for failures and the 7xx ones in particular that Doug has pointed out, yes, SD gear fails. But I have seen so few postings here, and especially in this thread, about SD's failing in the field and so many about laptops. As a previous poster just pointed out, folks talk about how well they have worked, " . . . except for the time that . . . " and you just do not hear that about dedicated gear. HD24's failing??!! Nahh. It would be a rare exception. SD's Nagras, and other good gear, nahh, maybe as a rare exception. They all fail, dedicated gear seems to fail much less often.

My position is that even in my little world I want to be reasonably sure that if I show my ass in the gig it will not be because the gear failed. Just as insurance companies advise, expose yourself to as little risk as possible.

[Plush]

Other threads surely are more interesting than this one. Mostly true believers here.

I have updated my profile page to include my real name and even more information than before.

I hope that others will fill out their profiles so that we can know with whom we are corresponding here on GS.
Otherwise, who are you? (you're nobody without a Neve)

[Ozpeter]

Concerning hitting the wrong keys on a laptop (or any type of PC) during a live recording - Reaper (and doubtless more expensive software?) allows you to have keyboard mapping for recording which differs from playback mapping. So you map out almost everything apart from a key to drop marks, and a two-key combo to stop recording. (And it would actually be pretty easy to provide for the "stop" key to have an "are you sure" stage as well). I suspect most hardware recorders have a single stop button which just stops, possibly more risky, though the function would be more obvious than on a PC keyboard.

[hbphotoav]

Organ recital recording (six tracks) this afternoon through a Apogee Ensemble to a MBP/Logic combo... done. No issues.

Backup CD recording of the principal pair with track start cues through the Ensemble's SPDIF out... done. No issues. Delivered a dupe to the artist 45 minutes later.

Backup HD24 recorder driven from the Ensemble's direct out assigns... done. No issues.

I even enjoyed Borodin, Tchaikovsky and Ravel at the NSO this evening... no issues.

Love my laptop. Love my CD-RW700. Love me some HD24 as well. No aversion to any of the above... but I do want a DR-680. And a shiny red bike.

[brle]

I just wanted to buy a new laptop and then i saw this thread....
Well i bought a RME UFX recently and intensively checked it with my MB Pro 2010 with no problems. Even my old sempron 800 Mhz laptop was usable for recording, far less for playback of the material. Bear in mind, everything thru USB connection and very reliable, no more screwing with firewire PCMCIA, Express cards, FW cables, IT chips and so on. Fantastic special is of course Durec as backup feature- it works flawless. So, tomorrow i´ll go shopping for a new PC sub-notebook pretty carelessly.

all the best
sascha

[Daniel Stark]

a few of the problems I have had on location with laptops:

(most of these were with a thinkpad and presonus firestudio mobile connected via cardbus--->firewire)

---->3 second dropouts around heavy kick drums!! this was when the laptop was next to the stage, and I "solved" the problem by moving it farther away and putting it on a cushioned chair instead of a hard table.

-----> Buzz coming through a shorted laptop AC cable that manifested itself as amplified digital noise later on

-----> clicks in audio due to screen savers/ wireless card (easily fixed)

So I have been learning how to minimize these problems. The first one was the most troubling by far as I still don't know what caused it and it is tough to replicate with "soak testing". An ART Tubefire was the best interface I have had yet, in terms of driver stability and build quality. I think in sound quality too (although I had a Yamaha i88x that sounded great).

I switched to an old DA78hr which gives me more peace of mind. I get all kind of system error notifications but always a clean recording that plays back perfectly....go figure?

The DA78hr is my personal favorite by a country mile and I am on the lookout for one with lower hours. Keep a Roland vs100 running as a 2-track backup to compact flash (and for direct to stereo stuff). But the Tascam machine just feels better to use-----dedicated hardware that inspires confidence and does what I need.

With Windows 7, Roland octa-capture, and the Thinkcentre all-in-ones, I am however tempted to give computers another shot.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by LX3

Tried it twice more. No go. Looks like this particular SSD has suffered a complete freak-out. Just as well I was running a safety (Tascam X48), so no damage done.

Hi!

May I ask about the brand/type of SSD?


/Peter

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by chris319

I recently had an SSD in my desktop computer quit. It wouldn't boot at all. Luckily, or rather, wisely, I had recent backups on good ol' magnetic HDs. I'm finished with SSDs.

And here to, may I ask about the brand and type of SSD?


/Peter

[talbe1019]

I use HD24XR's...never tried a laptop. Never had a problem with the HD24's.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by Audiop

And here to, may I ask about the brand and type of SSD?

Sure - 120GB OCZ Vertex 2

[Ozpeter]

-----> Buzz coming through a shorted laptop AC cable that manifested itself as amplified digital noise later on

Which reminds me - one problem I've encountered in the past is noise issues which were solved by disconnecting the earth from the laptop mains power supply. (Before doing that please consider safety issues). Some kind of ground loop phenomenon I suppose.

[roonsbane]

I am not dissing the HD24. I use and like them myself, but it does not sound nearly as good nor is it as reliable as a Radar. This is really just factual information. Jim you are correct that they are loud buggers, but they sound fantastic and are super reliable.

Roughly ten years ago (maybe it was less) I first tested the waters for the laptop rig using a Metric Halo ULN-2 interface. I did have problems and pretty much needed to use my backup too many times to count. With my newer RME card bus rig, there have been no issues that could not have happened with any type of rig. We are talking about two incidences over hundreds of recordings. Once I had a bad connector on a cable to the bus card, and another time I had a bad firewire cable. Boojum you do realize that you were amazingly lucky to not have lost something on those 722's? If I don't turn off the engine when I go into refuel my car and someone gets in the car and drives off with the hose in the tank, I would be partially to blame. I would recommend sticking with card bus systems as you know the bandwidth is super over qualified. Metric Halo boxes are also highly regarded at this point and I am sure the Prism is also great. Because of this thread, I put my hand on my laptop during a concert yesterday while recording 6 tracks, and it was barely warm to the touch right over the hard drive compartment.

We need to consider issues specific to a laptop verses alternative systems. Virtually everything that has been raised above could happen to any system. The exception being LX3's hard drive issue with 64 tracks? Let me repeat "64 tracks". My guess is that the hard drive on his desktop system are somehow isolated from being rack mounted and that's maybe why there are less issues. HD24 are the other boxes that have this vibration issue.

Generally I try and keep all of the cable on the back side of the racks and also the back side of the table I usually bring with me. The exception is usually the headphones which are of course in to my D/A converter and around my head. I need to always stay cool and collected, especially because I am often right back stage and I need to be very aware of things around me, especially very expensive instruments. There will always be cables everywhere on remote gigs. These cables have a way of wrapping around your leg when you are not paying attention. These cables are hard drive. word clock, digital I/O etc etc. No matter what the rig, these will be there, and it is extremely easy to rip the connector out of any box.

My system does not have any noise issues (hums or buzzes) because there are only very short lightpipe cables permanently prewired from my A/D converter into my digiface. This of course means no chances of any ground issues from the computer assuming the boxes are otherwise isolated. This lives in a 4 space rack: Furman, 16 channel A/D, ATI 8-MX2, Digiface. When I need more than 8 tracks I bring in one more ATI in a two space rack, plug in a another Dsub and you have 16 tracks. One more 2 space rack carries 2 half rack cd burners for the live reference CD's and a 722 takes a safety mix off the ATI 2 mix. If I needed a multitrack safety, 2nd lightpipe outs on A/D into Jocoe. That is a lot of power in 7 rack spaces.

When I am able to mix on speakers, my live mix is the mix that will be heard on the radio. Since the Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra performs in 9 venues all of which I am expected to capture them in by myself. Only two venues have monitor or control rooms, so I often mix on headphones. The same goes for on location Schubert Club events. Typically when I get back into a "real" monitoring environment, I can hear things in 10 seconds of listening that I was not positive of in headphones, clarity wise. Listening in my 580's or etymotics, unfortunately nothing is ever missing sonically, I hear everything. The difference I can then make remixing back at the station on speakers is the difference between an unmastered and mastered recording.
I have actually personally never seen any laptop just die, working one minute then not the next. On the other hand, I have seen software and system crashes on every system except for a Radar. Of course every system does crap out.
Let's address actual issues.
Best
Cameron

[chris319]

Originally Posted by Audiop

And here to, may I ask about the brand and type of SSD?

Kingston

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

I am not dissing the HD24. I use and like them myself, but it does not sound nearly as good nor is it as reliable as a Radar. This is really just factual information. Jim you are correct that they are loud buggers, but they sound fantastic and are super reliable.
Best
Cameron

We can agree to disagree? I have used both systems. The actual ADC record path is nearly identical between the Radar 96 and the HD24XR. Both use MC33078/9 opamps. Both use AKM 5393 ADC chips. Radar uses a linear psu, Alesis a switcher. The biggest difference is $12,300 and Radar gives you a DAW program.

Record quality is better than the playback quality on the HD24XR. That can be demonstrated using outboard converters. I ran my HD24XR with mods against a Radar 96 on a live drum session and the HD had better low end depth and clearer top end detail. The kick kicks and the cymbal stick attack is clearer with the HD24XR.

Vibration issues were solved some time ago, just remove one cage and bolt down a SSD. Plug the ribbon directly into the drive and skip the interface, that's were the vibration issue came from. If you install the Silonex low noise fan, the machine runs silently, something a Radar will never do. Whether Radar or HD24XR, both have great capturing capabilities, both far exceed the JoeCo box as those use low end converters, analog switching chips that select weird gain choices (+24 or +4 dbu).

[philper]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

We can agree to disagree? I have used both systems. The actual ADC record path is nearly identical between the Radar 96 and the HD24XR. Both use MC33078/9 opamps. Both use AKM 5393 ADC chips. Radar uses a linear psu, Alesis a switcher. The biggest difference is $12,300 and Radar gives you a DAW program.

Record quality is better than the playback quality on the HD24XR. That can be demonstrated using outboard converters. I ran my HD24XR with mods against a Radar 96 on a live drum session and the HD had better low end depth and clearer top end detail. The kick kicks and the cymbal stick attack is clearer with the HD24XR.

Vibration issues were solved some time ago, just remove one cage and bolt down a SSD. Plug the ribbon directly into the drive and skip the interface, that's were the vibration issue came from. If you install the Silonex low noise fan, the machine runs silently, something a Radar will never do. Whether Radar or HD24XR, both have great capturing capabilities, both far exceed the JoeCo box as those use low end converters, analog switching chips that select weird gain choices (+24 or +4 dbu).

My comparison (not blind) HD24XR to JoeCo was a wash, but I pretty much only record on location in far-less-than-optimal situations, which could well be the reason for not hearing diffs between the two. If Alesis had added TC to the HD24 I might be using one today (TC to an audio track doesn't count in my world). Some may find the gain choices "weird", but in a great deal of practical use they are not "problematic" and that's what counts, I think. I will say, re laptops, that the reliability (or the lower problem -count in real world use) seemed to decrease quickly with increasing numbers of tracks. For me, I had few issues (that weren't pilot error) up to 8 tracks, and mostly all good to 16. Above that, particularly if Mac device-aggregation was involved, the problems began to proliferate (including problems not audible while rolling). Since my jobs began to more in the 24 channel range this made the computer rigs less of a "comfortable" choice for me.

Jim Williams: did you put SSDs in both bays of your HD24?

phil p

[Jim Williams]

You only need to do that mod to one bay. Keep the other bay as it's handy to hot-swap drives for backups and stuff.

Plus, if the SSD fails, I can jack in a HD caddy in 5 seconds and go. I've not had the vibration issues others have had, doing stuff like placing the HD24 on top of a Marshall 4x12 cab! (Yes, some have done that).

If it's that loud, no way I'm getting in that close to the source, I have ears to protect! I've had more concerns about enviroments, like 105 degrees in the desert with a hot sun or a cold mountaintop ski resort. So far, no hiccups!

To put it all in perspective, I used to haul around 500 lb. 24 track machines. We took them on tours. Zappa always brought them to every gig and they all were recorded. I spent a couple of hours aligning them after they rolled out of the trucks. It was a major PITA. If we could, we brought 2 and overlapped so we wouldn't run out of tape during a song. The editing was hell on a razor blade.

Fast forward: Now I have a small, light, cassette sized 24 bit 96k digital recorder that weight in at 10 lbs. The storage is a cheapo $40 hard drive that holds hours and hours of time. If you need to edit, it's either built in or download to a DAW.

To me it's a fricking miracle! It changed the game for location multitrack recording, no longer do you need a $150,000 recorder that weighs about as much as a small car. No more recording trucks, I use my Jeep. It's all so portable and light.

I really don't have any complaints about this anymore. It's all easy and fun. All those white knuckle worries about tape, alignments, running out of tape before the song, weight, power use, etc, are gone, it's all so much better now.

Outboard converters make it future proof as it's a bit accurate recorder. I already use outboard BurrBrown PCM4222 ADC's and PCM1792A DAC's with it, it's as good as those converters.

JoeCo's choice of +4 or +24 dbu levels for full scale is weird. +4 dbu is useless, anything will clip that. +24 dbu is alo marginal as many unbalanced outputs will not reach + 24 dbu, they are limited to + 21 dbu. Therefore, the unbalanced feed device will clip first, not good. Many balanced devices can do +27~+28 dbu, but leaving only 3~4 db headroom is also asking for it. Radar gives you better gain staging choices and the HD24XR is set at +19 dbu for full scale.

[The Spark]

If your using a laptop this article may prove to be a help. (Ive never tried it though, but it seems like good advice)

Tape Op Magazine > Tape Log > The Sudden Motion Sensor Hates Your Mobile Session

As for those that are using macbooks for recording live shows, isnt something like Boom Recorder supposed to be more stable? Sure its not a DAW where you can do overdubs or run effects, but if recording a live show were a little bit of extra stability matters it might be worth a shot?

[roonsbane]

Jim said:

We can agree to disagree? I have used both systems. The actual ADC record path is nearly identical between the Radar 96 and the HD24XR. Both use MC33078/9 opamps. Both use AKM 5393 ADC chips. Radar uses a linear psu, Alesis a switcher. The biggest difference is $12,300 and Radar gives you a DAW program.

Hi Jim,

You know about this more than me, but doesn't the switching power supply present a whole set of issue that you don't get with terroidals? I know from when my friend Coleman Rodgers was trying to reverse engineer the remote controlled 8 channel 1073 clone he did for PAD. He told me he had first tried using switching power supplies with all sorts of fixes for the garbage it was introducing into the signal. Finally he went with a teroidal and it was rock solid and showing much better specs. I am not saying this simple design difference is worth the difference in price by itself, but ultimately doesn't it make for an inherently better A/D or Pre/Power amp? Of course you might have some trick? I also don't thing we should discount the quality of the code. There are some companies that consistently write reliable code. They choose reliability over new features, and there are others that take the opposite approach. Personally I think Radar did themselves a disservice when they brought their prices up. They should have dropped the price in half if possible.

For me the JoCoe is just a bit bucket safety being fed by external A/D that will hopefully never get used.

Hallelujah for smaller rigs. I can't do back surgery again, and I can't seem to nail mixes entirely, (especially reverb and highlight level), on headphones. My friend and colleague worked for WNYC for years. He tells me the most hellacious stories of not being able to park within blocks of gigs. They would push Studer 962's and 2 tracks several blocks to events. Often there would be no elevator and they would bring it all up many flights of stairs. Then the van would need to get back to the lot on the other side of the city at 2:00 AM. Shoot me!

CW

[Audiop]

@ roonsbane, amen to that and man how nice it is to use the 788T for remote jobs.

The expensive stuff (788T-SSD and eight MKH800 mic's) fits in a small backpack. I cut the foam in a Sennheiser box so all my eight Senns fit in one such box.


/Peter

[sonare]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

I get it plush. You love to bait your fellow slutz. You just dig your heals in and just keep on repeating the same thing over and over. That is very helpful. At APM we have several Nagras as well. They are in a closet in the basement gathering dust. We have moved on. Also, I see nothing particularly impressive in your gear photos: Studer, we have several, HD24 have two, old tube neumanns and AKG's, got them, schoeps and DPA's, so do many of your fellow slutz. By the way, If you wanted a much more reliable digital recorder it would be a IZ Radar, not an Alesis HD24.

So in your opinion, would a new say $2000 laptop be capable of recording 2 tracks safely? How about if the system software is streamlined and never goes online? How about 8 tracks? How is it that folks can get a 64 channel MADI stream onto their laptop even once without a hickup and since folks have recorded 64 tracks on their laptop is this not some evidence that recording 2-24 tracks is probably not a problem, especially on a newer laptop? How about 2-24 tracks on a desktop system? How about when the power goes out in the building? What is your backup on the day your "Alesis" hard disk based recorder or some cable or console or preamp craps out, and finally do you have cerebral palsy? Is that why hitting the "*" button on a keyboard is extremely difficult for you without hitting some other adjacent buttons thereby canceling your recording. No No, I am just baiting you man on that last one

Best
Cameron

If this is the maturity level of the American Public Media staff, then I am glad that I only upload files to APM. The last 3 sentences are so tasteless that further comment might encourage more of the same.

Grow up.

Rich

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Vibration issues were solved some time ago, just remove one cage and bolt down a SSD. Plug the ribbon directly into the drive and skip the interface, that's were the vibration issue came from. If you install the Silonex low noise fan, the machine runs silently, something a Radar will never do. Whether Radar or HD24XR, both have great capturing capabilities, both far exceed the JoeCo box as those use low end converters, analog switching chips that select weird gain choices (+24 or +4 dbu).

Have you actually tried an SSD in the HD24 or have you got a link to a discussion from someone else who has done it talking about their results ?

[Jim Williams]

Both. One guy is in Greece and has a modified HD24XR. He's guiding me through selecting the correct SSD as some he's used won't work. Right now I'm putting together some IDE/SATA converters. I have some low cost converter pcb's I paid 10 bucks for, they're bi-directional so they work both ways. Fitting that card in the caddie is tricky as a 3.5" drive will extend out the front. The SSD and 2.5" laptop sized ought to clear ok.

Magic Sound also has their IDE to SATA converter caddies available again. I am getting 2 of those. Those do work with CCZ Vertex 2 60 and 90 gig SSD's and the Crucial M4.

The low cost IDE/SATA converter I bought from:

MCM Electronics: Home and Pro Audio/Video, Security and Test Equipment

Turns out the IDE connector is female so I ordered a $10 .1" dual row header to connect the two, the connector costs more than the IDE/SATA converter pcb! I'll have it tomorrow so I'll let you know if it works.

The Silonex 14 db fan is already installed so the silence of the SSD ought to help in lowering recorder noise to nothing. I have no hum nor buzz in my system. I do hear the power transformers in my hardware in the control room though. Those racks can get noisy with all those power transformers ringing away. I've replaced some of them with higher current torroids, that seems to help.

As to switcher power supplies, yes they are not the best solution for noise. How well they work is dependent on the quality of the post switch filtering.

The HD24 uses a pair of 2200 uf caps seperated by a large inductor. The negative rails only use a pair of 330 uf caps, too small. I replace those with a pair of Panasonic FR 1000 uf caps. I have also replaced my 2200 uf 16v caps with Panasonic FR series (the best) 4700 uf caps. Those are then bypassed with high voltage Wima polyprop film caps. That seems to fix the switcher problems as stereo imaging improves and the power rails are clean.

HD24 users need to know that the soft switch power down on the front panel does NOT shut off the internal power supply, just the 5 volt section. The + - 12 volt analog rails are still on and will be unless you shut off the REAR power switch too. The units analog current draw will overheat the interior and without fan flow, heat damage can occur.

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Both. One guy is in Greece and has a modified HD24XR. He's guiding me through selecting the correct SSD as some he's used won't work. Right now I'm putting together some IDE/SATA converters. I have some low cost converter pcb's I paid 10 bucks for, they're bi-directional so they work both ways. Fitting that card in the caddie is tricky as a 3.5" drive will extend out the front. The SSD and 2.5" laptop sized ought to clear ok.

Magic Sound also has their IDE to SATA converter caddies available again. I am getting 2 of those. Those do work with CCZ Vertex 2 60 and 90 gig SSD's and the Crucial M4.

So there are confirmed reports that both OCZ and Crucial brand SSDs work in the HD24 ? Do you know of any other internet disucssion where people have talked about this ? The reason im asking is because ive heard some people suggest SSD's will work but then dont actually have any real world testimonials to offer, im interested in trying an SSD but i dont want to throw money away on 5 different brands before i get the right one.. The stores where i live arent very forthcoming with returning things if they arent broken so i cant just try things out and swap them over if they dont work in the HD24.

[Jim Williams]

Those drives have been used by others with success. That's why I listed those. There also may be several others that will work, but I'm not the guy to be the guinea pig on that.

[Rob Coates]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

HD24 users need to know that the soft switch power down on the front panel does NOT shut off the internal power supply, just the 5 volt section. The + - 12 volt analog rails are still on and will be unless you shut off the REAR power switch too. The units analog current draw will overheat the interior and without fan flow, heat damage can occur.

For at least 3 years, I shut off only on the front until I was informed about this. Then a couple of weeks ago, I forgot to shut down in the back for about three days. When I used the machine after that, no problem, but when I shut it down and then decided to power it up again for one more take, nothing happened. Unplugged the power and plugged back in. This time, the red light on the record button was flashing. Tried again and this time all the buttons started flashing and machine wouldn't power up. Waited a 1/2 hour and then everything powered up fine and has at least 20 or 30 times since then. Is this a sign my power supply is about to give out or is on it's last leg?

[Masaaki]

A friend of mine (field engineer, measuring oscillation of bridges, dams, for the research of earthquake) uses this laptop from Panasonic.
Panasonic Toughbook 31 Rugged Computer - Panasonic Toughbook 31 Laptop

The model I linked above is expensive, but probably good for live recording as well.

In fact, in Japan, Panasonic toughbook sells far better than in US, because business man in tokyo subway are always squished, pushed, etc, and prefer tougher laptops than slim/flagile laptops (e.g. Sony VAIO). My first VAIO, bought in early '90 didn't last long. The Panasonic's business toughbook (sold as "Let's Note", in Japan) won't be good for audio, but the real "rugged" toughbook (available worldwide) should be good for live recording, if paired with a good interface.

Of course, nothing guarantees, so backup system should always be there.

[Jim Williams]

The MCM IDE to SATA converter is a no go. Ten bucks wasted and a 40 pin header.

The Magic Sound caddies arrive tomorrow, those will work.