What's this aversion of laptops here?

[LX3]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

On your MADI issue, I would tend to blame these issues on buffer settings or maybe even software before I would blame it on it being a laptop, but anything is possible.

Two of the failures were definitely caused by the MBP overheating. When the processors overheats you start getting sudden CPU spikes in Nuendo. It generally doesn't drop out of record, but you will lose some samples.

The other failure was sheer SPL interfering with the hard drive - fixed on the following shows in the same venue by recording to an SSD. You can't predict these sort of failures until you get into the show (you can't even predict them in the soundcheck), and that's one reason why I was saying that the only good test is to use a new system under gig conditions. Even then, some gigs are more demanding that others, so just because a system works on one show sadly doesn't mean it can be guaranteed to be faultless on another.

That said, my two rackmount PCs have never failed when used in similar situations... Apart from one time when the CPU cooler in one of them got dislodged in transit, but that incident made itself pretty apparent within 20 seconds of trying to boot up.

I make it sound bad, but I should reiterate that some of the gigs I do are in pretty extreme conditions. Recording 20 tracks at a classical gig is not going to stress a laptop the way recording 60 tracks in an insanely-loud and hot environment is going to. I've recorded hundreds of shows where nothing has failed of course. Everyone runs into issues from time to time, but you figure out a strategy to prevent it happening again.

You certainly have me curious.I take it you are using am RME MADI card buss system? RME really makes very reliable gear and drivers. I use a digiface myself and do use high buffer settings not taking any chances with this.

Yep, RME Madiface, high buffer settings. I agree, the RME stuff is generally rock solid and wasn't to blame for any of these recent issues. I think I have at least one of every piece of MADI kit RME make, and I'm very happy with all of it.

[d_fu]

My standard recording laptop is even older, it's a 900 MHz PIII Toshiba Tecra 9000... I replaced the original disk and only use it for location recordings. Most of the time, I use less than 20 tracks, but the machine is capable of more without problems.


D.

[Plush]

The aversion is that a laptop is not reliable.

Can you imagine a tape recorder not going in to "record" (red lite) when you press the record button?

Think for a moment if your job was to record the last performance of Horowitz and your recorder failed.

Not only would you be fired, you would be disgraced.

[MichaelPatrick]

In six years using dedicated digital recorders I haven't missed one capture. In fact, pre-roll has saved my butt a few times because I was distracted and missed a downbeat. Before that I used reel recorders and, again, perfect reliability.

Computers are more complex and statistically less reliable. But for someone who masters all the extra variables, computers can be practically as reliable as a dedicated recorder.

For me the decision to use dedicated recorders is all about hassle and risk. I don't want either.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Plush

The aversion is that a laptop is not reliable.

Not true...

Can you imagine a tape recorder not going in to "record" (red lite) when you press the record button?

Why would a laptop not do so just because it's a laptop?

Think for a moment if your job was to record the last performance of Horowitz and your recorder failed.

I'd have three recorders... I'd start them way before he were to walk onstage, and I would have tested the setup at home, during rehearsals (if any, alternatively while the piano was being tuned), and between the rehearsals/tuning and the show.

[Plush]

Hello Fu,

I already know that they are unreliable (in that there are many reasons why the laptop and its associated hardware / software / drivers might not record or might quit recording.) So there's no guessing there and your refutation carries little weight with me.

Only because they are a cheap way in is the laptop popular.

Here I use a Sony VAIO with SADiE V.6 on a laptop. But it is the backup recorder. My main recorder, a NAGRA, has never failed. In 30 years.

I think laptop systems are OK for sessions, just not for live recordings.

It is part age related too. Younger recordists have more confidence in laptop recording than those who started out on a analog tape recorder.

[Studiodawg]

Plush, You seem to not accept compromise. Extremist views that you exemplify are inflammatory and false. This thread details most views and scenarios that both work and have problems. Relax. I know I will never work with you and for that matter I would never have you work for me because of your limited acceptance of "valid recording methodologies for location recordings". Have a nice day.

[Plush]

Hello Dawg,

You are certainly right. I seldom compromise. I also spend the money necessary to minimize compromise. That is what you and your ilk will not do it seems. Otherwise, why run a laptop, baby?

I did just try to look you up but your profile here on GS does not include any information about you. Things such as where you are, what kind of work you are doing, your equipment arsenal or any other information that one could be interested in knowing about you. A pity because I could then virtually visualize you and your work.

Here I can be looked up and I will also answer any questions that anyone has about recordings, methodology, equipment choice, personal political opinions or any counseling about sex.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Plush

I already know that they are unreliable (in that there are many reasons why the laptop and its associated hardware / software / drivers might not record or might quit recording.) So there's no guessing there and your refutation carries little weight with me.

You may have been unfortunate enough to have worked with unreliable laptops, but this does not amount to a general truth about all laptops. Maybe you could provide details of some of the reasons you mentioned.
I have been recording with laptops for many years, certainly not with anywhere near the frequency you have been doing so, but there have been a good number of opportunties where failure was no option, and on none of these, any of my laptops failed just because it was a laptop. My previously used rackmount PC was not that much better, at times the old Sonorus StudI/O card did act up in fact...

Only because they are a cheap way in is the laptop popular.

You don't use any cheap microphones, preamps, or other peripherals. Why would you (or anyone, for that matter) assume that any cheap laptop would actually make a good and reliable recording machine for professional use?
A good laptop may not be cheap. There are numerous dedicated suppliers that will sell laptops that are up to the task and absolutely as good as a desktop PC...

Here I use a Sony VAIO with SADiE V.6 on a laptop. But it is the backup recorder.

Did Sony design this laptop with audio applications in mind? Probably not. So it will likely have needed some tweaking to perform reliably, like most other off-the-shelf office laptops. That also does not say anything about laptop suitability in general, IMHO....

It is part age related too. Younger recordists have more confidence in laptop recording than those who started out on a analog tape recorder.

No doubt about that. And nothing wrong with it.

D.

[Jim Williams]

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".

That's where I'm at regarding live recordings using a laptop.

Or, as Roger Daltry sang: "I won't get fooled again".

[king2070lplaya]

Funny thread! Seems like the lesson to be learned here is "use a backup".

I've done some pretty long shows with laptop and had it work fine. I have also experienced, albeit in a studio session, the laptop stop recording. So I always bring the 24XR out as well, just in case.

I don't think there's really a right or wrong answer to this question, do you?

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya

I don't think there's really a right or wrong answer to this question, do you?

I think the answer is:

• Use a dedicated recorder? Relax and focus on the recording. A backup may be optional.
• Use a computer? Study, prepare, tune and adjust, then focus on the recording. A backup is almost always required.

This way the risks are acceptably low for both recorder types.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Plush

Only because they are a cheap way in is the laptop popular.
.

A reliable laptop setup is NOT cheap! A MPB($2500) with good software (Pyramix Native $1000) W/ a decent interface (FW800 $1500 - Orpheus $4500) and Hard drive (Glyph - $500) totals at least $5500. Add in decent mic pres and you're at the cost of a Nagra. I suspect there are reasons other than the "low" cost some of us use a laptop in the field. For example, being able to hand a client the concert on their hard drive when it's done (saves time and shipping) or handing a rough/finished master after the gig. If you're running a full back up, as you mentioned, what is the difference?

[huub]

I never use a laptop for serious recording, apart from at home, for fun..
BUT I'm very tempted by the idea of a macbook that can record 128 channels.
It should be possible really, a thunderbolt to PCIe with a dual MADI card, and a thunderbolt or FW800 drive.. Why not really? The whole system would fit in handluggage....
I use my macbook for critical live to air stuff with no reliability issues ever..

[boojum]

Originally Posted by huub

BUT I'm very tempted by the idea of a macbook that can record 128 channels.

Now all that is left is the 128 mics.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Use a dedicated recorder? Relax and focus on the recording. A backup may be optional.

As long as a hard drive is involved, I would not consider backup optional, be it laptop or recorder. Hard drives fail.

• Use a computer? Study, prepare, tune and adjust, then focus on the recording. A backup is almost always required.

These steps ideally need to be done once only. My main recording laptop setup stays in its case when I'm not recording, this is a dedicated recorder, so to say. I don't use it for anything else. I grab it, set it up, connect preamps or whatever, and hit record in an ancient version of Sequoia (7.22)...

Sometimes I will experiment with alternative or smaller setups e.g. with a Netbook, then some preparation is definitely required.

Here's one of my favourite lil' no-brains setups, used for an unattended recording, using two small standalone recorders (which only do 8 tracks of 16/44...)

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by d_fu

As long as a hard drive is involved, I would not consider backup optional, be it laptop or recorder. Hard drives fail.

I feel the same, so I rely on solid state media and use hard disks for backup:

RME Fireface UFX DURec > USB 64G Corsair Flash Voyager GT - backup to computer running RME DigiCheck
SoundDevices 788T > direct simultaneous write to CF and internal HD
Tascam DR-680 > SD - external backup if any
Tascam HD-P2 > CF - external backup if any

Sometimes I'll mix to a CD burner in realtime to make a quick CD that also serves as a safety backup.

[aracu]

Originally Posted by Plush

I will also answer any questions that anyone has about recordings, methodology, equipment choice, personal political opinions or any counseling about sex.

free Gearslut therapy

[roonsbane]

I get it plush. You love to bait your fellow slutz. You just dig your heals in and just keep on repeating the same thing over and over. That is very helpful. At APM we have several Nagras as well. They are in a closet in the basement gathering dust. We have moved on. Also, I see nothing particularly impressive in your gear photos: Studer, we have several, HD24 have two, old tube neumanns and AKG's, got them, schoeps and DPA's, so do many of your fellow slutz. By the way, If you wanted a much more reliable digital recorder it would be a IZ Radar, not an Alesis HD24.

So in your opinion, would a new say $2000 laptop be capable of recording 2 tracks safely? How about if the system software is streamlined and never goes online? How about 8 tracks? How is it that folks can get a 64 channel MADI stream onto their laptop even once without a hickup and since folks have recorded 64 tracks on their laptop is this not some evidence that recording 2-24 tracks is probably not a problem, especially on a newer laptop? How about 2-24 tracks on a desktop system? How about when the power goes out in the building? What is your backup on the day your "Alesis" hard disk based recorder or some cable or console or preamp craps out.

Best
Cameron

[RobAnderson]

Originally Posted by d_fu

As long as a hard drive is involved, I would not consider backup optional, be it laptop or recorder. Hard drives fail.

These steps ideally need to be done once only. My main recording laptop setup stays in its case when I'm not recording, this is a dedicated recorder, so to say. I don't use it for anything else. I grab it, set it up, connect preamps or whatever, and hit record in an ancient version of Sequoia (7.22)...

Sometimes I will experiment with alternative or smaller setups e.g. with a Netbook, then some preparation is definitely required.

Here's one of my favourite lil' no-brains setups, used for an unattended recording, using two small standalone recorders (which only do 8 tracks of 16/44...)

Where's the laptop?

[RobAnderson]

Originally Posted by huub

I never use a laptop for serious recording, apart from at home, for fun..

I use my macbook for critical live to air stuff with no reliability issues ever..

Sorry huub, but this post confuses me a little. Would you clarify?

[HellvisPresley]

Hi, all: Honored to be a recent remote slut. having just started working with a Tascam X48 in January of this year. My hero and mentor, Plush, with whom I've associated for 17 years, urged me to take the leap into the location world. I am an old board banger, just began my 36th year in the music biz.

For nearly eight years now I have maintained a mastering studio operation with TWO locations using FOUR laptops with no dependability issues whatever. I'm certain that if my fearless leader submits that he's using his Sadie native with a Babyface for back-ups, it must be true, but in our time together, I've seen only a CD recorder (or rarely a vintage analog tape) used.

I have another buddy who is a big-time corporate videographer, with at least equal risk upon failure. He uses a high end HP Elitebook mobile workstation to record HD video and a digital audio stream with complete dependability. Such "laptops" as designed for pro use; hence the "workstation" designation. A Sony Vaio? - really, Plush, you better hope that little old drive in your HD24 keeps chugging along, 'cause your backup needs a backup!

[LX3]

And so it continues...

I haven't recorded with a laptop since the overheating issue cropped up.

But today I had a gig where a laptop was the ideal solution. So I set up my other, newer (although not the latest) unibody MacBook Pro 13". I put Cubase 6 on it this morning, tested it with my rack, all looked good. Headed off to the show. Only recording 28 tracks. Easy.

All went well. No overheating. Recording to an external firewire SSD which I've used a few times before very successfully.

Smooth.

Finished the show, saved the project, ejected the drive and switched it off. Then before I shut down, I decided to reconnect the drive, just to check something.

"The drive you inserted cannot be read by this computer. Erase? Eject?" (you know the dialog... something like that).

Tried it twice more. No go. Looks like this particular SSD has suffered a complete freak-out. Just as well I was running a safety (Tascam X48), so no damage done.

This is typical of my experience with laptops. They work fine for me 85% of the time, but then some random weirdness tends to cause them to crap out. So you solve that issue, only for a new one to pop up out of the blue. I'm with Plush, I like laptops and continue to use them on certain gigs, but I find that they're trailing behind in the reliability stakes.

(Would you believe that the most reliable laptop I ever recorded with was an original 400MHz G4 Powerbook running Mac OS 9? I barely believe it myself)

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Where's the laptop?

This setup is in fact without laptop... Just two recorders backin' up each other. Not an entirely serious contribution to the thread.

Originally Posted by LX3

Finished the show, saved the project, ejected the drive and switched it off. Then before I shut down, I decided to reconnect the drive, just to check something.
"The drive you inserted cannot be read by this computer. Erase? Eject?" (you know the dialog... something like that).
Tried it twice more. No go. Looks like this particular SSD has suffered a complete freak-out. Just as well I was running a safety (Tascam X48), so no damage done.
This is typical of my experience with laptops.

But how is this an issue of the laptop?

Apart from that, one extra step would have saved the recording - copying it to the internal drive right away. I usually record to the internal drive, then copy files to a USB disk right after the show, sometimes even in the interval, too. Takes a while, but I do it while I grab my mics and stands etc.

(Would you believe that the most reliable laptop I ever recorded with was an original 400MHz G4 Powerbook running Mac OS 9? I barely believe it myself)

I believe it... Straight recording does not take up much CPU, and does not even need extremely fast drives. For a test, I've recorded 64 channels to an external 80-gig Samsung USB drive which is at least 6 years old or so...

[chris319]

Finished the show, saved the project, ejected the drive and switched it off. Then before I shut down, I decided to reconnect the drive, just to check something.

"The drive you inserted cannot be read by this computer. Erase? Eject?" (you know the dialog... something like that).

Tried it twice more. No go. Looks like this particular SSD has suffered a complete freak-out. Just as well I was running a safety (Tascam X48), so no damage done.

I recently had an SSD in my desktop computer quit. It wouldn't boot at all. Luckily, or rather, wisely, I had recent backups on good ol' magnetic HDs. I'm finished with SSDs.

[Ozpeter]

Sounds like Roonsbane uses a laptop very much like mine (same kind of CPU, brand and age). As stated before, mine proved unreliable. His is just fine.

There are no rules here!

(But I bet he has been a bit more careful than me about what he also runs on his laptop).

[huub]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Sorry huub, but this post confuses me a little. Would you clarify?

I meant that I use my macbook for all kinds of audiostuff (editing, playing out jingles and voiceovers ("grams") and recording stereomixes) professionally, but multitracking I only do for fun with my laptop (recording a friends band etc.)

However, professional multitracking (128 channels fairly regularly) I do on PC's and not on dedicated hardware.. I do not know of dedicated hardware that can do that anyway, although I'm very very interested in the JOECO MADI version!

[Plush]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

I get it plush. You love to bait your fellow slutz. You just dig your heals in and just keep on repeating the same thing over and over. That is very helpful. At APM we have several Nagras as well. They are in a closet in the basement gathering dust. We have moved on. Also, I see nothing particularly impressive in your gear photos: Studer, we have several, HD24 have two, old tube neumanns and AKG's, got them, schoeps and DPA's, so do many of your fellow slutz. By the way, If you wanted a much more reliable digital recorder it would be a IZ Radar, not an Alesis HD24.

So in your opinion, would a new say $2000 laptop be capable of recording 2 tracks safely? How about if the system software is streamlined and never goes online? How about 8 tracks? How is it that folks can get a 64 channel MADI stream onto their laptop even once without a hickup and since folks have recorded 64 tracks on their laptop is this not some evidence that recording 2-24 tracks is probably not a problem, especially on a newer laptop? How about 2-24 tracks on a desktop system? How about when the power goes out in the building? What is your backup on the day your "Alesis" hard disk based recorder or some cable or console or preamp craps out, and finally do you have cerebral palsy? Is that why hitting the "*" button on a keyboard is extremely difficult for you without hitting some other adjacent buttons thereby canceling your recording. No No, I am just baiting you man on that last one

Best
Cameron

Hello Cameron,

No, genuinely I don't aim to bait people here, only to convey experiences. The reasons I sometimes repeat myself is that I see posters going off on a tangent that does not matter to the recording and I seek to remind them to focus on the very few factors in front of them that matter to the success of making a creditable recording. This is not new to you, is it?

Every engineer I know that uses a laptop has told me that they have had it fail on them and stop recording. I simply can't have that so I don't use them. I am suspicious of those who use laptops for live work.

To clear up a few points, I have started learning to work with a laptop here and it has been very reliable. Any problems I have had in testing have been pilot error and I have learned to use the SADiE V. 6 software reliably. It's a good system. But I would not use it for live recording.

As far as my set-ups are concerned, I don't post proprietary methods of working on GS. Also, one's sound presentation abilities don't depend primarily on equipment in my mind. They depend on microphone choice and placement and on the acoustic where one is making the recording. Can we possibly include the artiste in the reasons for success as well?

I don't really post pictures of the ways I work here on GS. Some gear selection is standard issue stuff. For example HD 24 is reliable and, when fed from quality converters, the sound storage is outstanding. NO reason whatever to use the Canadian system you propose.

The thing about my work is that I almost always arrive at the final two track mix on the spot. I record the two track master right there.
The multi-track is my back-up.

I won't comment on the ending language in your post. I feel it is in poor taste to joke about debilitating illness.

I am confident that I can offer up a mindblowed sound after a ten minute rehearsal EVERY time. That is why my services are in demand.
Ironically for here on GS, that has nothing to do with equipment, baiting anyone or anything else.

Also, sir, before you berate me again, please update your GS profile so that I can adjudge your standing in the recording community and where I can see in what market you ply your craft.
Right now, I have no basis for knowing who you are.


Below: my assistant makes a back up of the back up. (with his own Wisconsin made recorder and my SADiE V. 6 native on a laptop.

[tourtelot]

Here's my recent history with laptops. I recorded a vocalist/piano (operatic material) with a ULN8 and my work-a-day MB. It failed :( I have since purchased a MBP and have on it only the recording software (Metric Halo), Reaper for editing and rendering on location, and some wave-file housekeeping tools. No Office, no games, no WiFi, no Spotlight. Nothing else.

But for the last two remotes, I have taken the 788T out and it has worked fine. Still a little unsure about the new MBP rig, I guess.

Now, if you go and look at the Sound Devices forum, you will see a number of frantic posts from guys "in the trenches" who have had pretty gnarly 744/788 failures. 744/788 machines fail.

I use two dedicated recorders in my day job as a location dialog recordist in TV. Each has failed in its own way any number of times over the past 10 years or so; fortunately not at the same time.

Even though I am loath to say this for fear of some threat from our friend Plush about getting me kicked off GS, I had Nagras that failed at one time or another starting with a failure of my Nagra III on the first big commercial I worked on. Nagra III, 4.2, 4S, 4STC, X4S; they all had their share of problems, although rarely (and no one used a backup in those days!) But they were the epitome of Rube Goldberg "pulley and belt" design; amazing that they ever pulled tape. Anyone ever put the batteries into a Nagra backwards with the AD yelling at you over your shoulder? Or thread up a roll of tape on the OUTSIDE of the head shield? Or pinch a 7" roll with the lid and look down minutes later to see half a roll of tape wadded up inside the lid.

DAT machines? Pretty notorious for f'ing up.

Yamaha 01V96 as a head end? Failed. Microphone cable? Failed. Headphones? Failed. Even really expensive rocket ships fail. Well, I guess you get my point.

We are working with more and more complicated tools. That means a lot of crazy processing (and not just digital) going on in there. It's a wonder any of it works EVER.

So I guess I will just keep trying it out, backing it up, and getting help and experience from the (mostly) giving folks here and elsewhere. And figure that, occasionally, something will fail and do my best to not let it ruin the recording.

D.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by HellvisPresley

A Sony Vaio? - really, Plush, you better hope that little old drive in your HD24 keeps chugging along, 'cause your backup needs a backup!

Great Harry,

I am mixing the two track so that is usually my master.
The multi-track is the back-up.

I trust the HD 24 to store a great recording. I have never had a failure with the machine.

Thankyasomuch for not ever using a laptop on any jobs I hire you to do for me.