Using a high quality mic preamp on vocals during live performance...good idea?

[Geddyleewannabe]

I've never heard of anyone using their favorite mic pre for live vocal performance. Do people do this? If not, why not? My guess is that a nice Neve, API, or Great River would be much better than whatever preamp exists in whatever board the house or local hired soundman happens to have. Is my logic correct?

If this is a good idea, how do you bypass the micpre in the channelstrip your plugging your vocals into on the mixing board and use your own beloved mic pre?

Since I've never read any discussions on this, I wonder if my question has ignorance written all over it. Sorry if this is the case.

[dbbubba]

I have bounced back and forth between live and studio for most of my thirty plus years of pro audio experience and I'll have to tell you that it has only really been in the last few years that live rigs have had speaker and amp combinations that allowed you to "enjoy" higher quality pre-amps.

A lot of people would disagree, but there have been so many issues to tackle and tame that the benefit gained from a beteer mic pre was pretty far down the list.

I have seen artists of stature bring mic pres like Avalons to the F.O.H. position and I guess it was "better," but most respectable consoles have pres that are good enough.
The mic pres in all Midas consoles are pretty damn good.
I also be;ive that all current production Midas consoles have the exact same mic pre/EQ circuitry.

Most all live consoles use the same pre amp for both line in amd mic in, so you are getting the same quality of sound that the console's preamp introduces either way.

On the otherhand, if a certian mic pre is fairly colored and you need to get that sound than I guess that it couldn't hurt.

Still, if you have a live rig so dialed in that better mic pre would further the sound then go for it. It just doesn't happen that often in my world. Now, if you have a crap console it's a whole different story....

We have a Nexo S series with nine tops and three bottoms which we augment with Renkus Heinz 18" subs. When mixing a good band on that rig using one of our Midas consoles I do wish that I had better outboard compressors. We have several dBx160x and a pair of dBx 900 racks. I always wish I had a compressor setup on the mains like a pair of 1176s or better. The Nexo is the first p.a. rig where I have felt I could benefit from better compressors in all of my years and I've used a lot of p.a.s!

Danny Brown

[C/G]

When I saw Calexico two years back, the sound guy was rocking a couple of Space Echos, an Avalon strip (737?) and a couple of other rack pieces for what I assume was for the vocals.

[meteor]

It is more common for FOH guys to use high-end studio comps in live situations. I have also seen a few 737s in various rigs. Also see a lot of of tube-tech comps out there.

cheers,

[Geddyleewannabe]

I really wasn't refering to high quality boards which would usually translate into really good sounding preamps. I'm more refering to some of the lame budget minded boards I've been ran through at various clubs, venues, etc. I'm not really talking about the big time boards that few local acts ever get the pleasure to run through.

[allencollins]

Lots of bands use high end pres live. I used to do lights at a club in boston. in the late 90's early 2000's I saw lots of mid level band like 3 doors down, fuel etc...
bring in midas consoles but they used avalon pres, Ive seen some focusrite strips.
some ameks even some lower end pres.

Live you need tons of headroom to really bring the vocals out above the music
never saw any neves though.

[kevinc]

I patch in my high end preamps and compressors when jamming with my band through my fairly cheap PA system all the time and I think it makes a HUGE difference. Compared to a Mackie and 3630 or something it`s night and day.

If I can detect it through my crappy PA I imagine it`d make a difference live as well and it will make the singer more confident.

If the pre`s are good in the console I guess it`s all moot anyways but I think a high end compressor helps quite a bit as well.

[squeegybug]

You bet. We used Pendulum SPS for years for live vocal mics. Then when I tried Gordon on it, that was a done deal. Just breathe on it and it is right there, just an incredibly fun and powerful way to sing. Feedback and mush all gone. Can never go back to using mixer channels.

Steve

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by Geddyleewannabe

I really wasn't refering to high quality boards which would usually translate into really good sounding preamps. I'm more refering to some of the lame budget minded boards I've been ran through at various clubs, venues, etc. I'm not really talking about the big time boards that few local acts ever get the pleasure to run through.

That's exactly the situation where it is likely to help you least. Those typical house consoles don't have a real line input. If you plug something into the line input, the mixer internally pads it down to mic level, then runs it through the internal mic pre. So you go through the mixer's mic pres no matter which input you use.

If your outboard gear is doing some specific processing (like a compressor, or even a tube pre that's pushed hard), then it may contribute to a specific sound that you are after, but it's still going through the cheap mic pre that's built into the mixer.

[kevinc]

Originally Posted by Gilliland

That's exactly the situation where it is likely to help you least. Those typical house consoles don't have a real line input. If you plug something into the line input, the mixer internally pads it down to mic level, then runs it through the internal mic pre. So you go through the mixer's mic pres no matter which input you use.

I tend to think if your getting 90% of the level from the high end mic pre and just a little bit of juice from the Mackie or whatever your using than most of the sound is coming from the mic pre. If your not overloading the Mackie pre or line input and keeping it well within it`s limits than it`s not necessarily something that`s going to effect the basic sound of the better pre negatively.

The initial relationship between the mic and high end pre is there and that`s the most important thing. Try it ! It sounds better though I agree it obviously doesn`t sound as good as a great pre going through an allready great sounding board.

[johnnyvince]

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but here are some things to consider:

If you've never done FOH for a living, you should know that the show is the FOH mixer's #1 priority is getting the show on, on-time, without snafu's. People are always making PITA requests that involve some risk to that mission, should he indulge them. Your local/house soundman may not feel like using a piece of gear he can't vouch for personally, which you should respect...even though "in theory" your trying to "improve" the sound. He also might be pressed for time. If you ask, ask reee-ally nicely.

Don't assume that the soundguy knows how to patch and use your gear properly. Sometimes you get SoundGod, sometimes you get a drummer on his day off. ***JOKE*** He could make things worse.

A thief could walk out the front door of the club with your API pre more easily than with your Les Paul.

Will it help your performance to look out and see your beloved pre being used as coaster for a pint of Guinness? Just a thought.

If after thinking about all these things, you still want to patch in and bypass the board's pre's (and if it's okay with the soundman), you can use the insert return. This is more complicated than you might think, as some boards use unbalanced inserts (a la Mackie), that are ring return, whereas (more rarely) unbalanced inserts are tip return. Then you've got balanced TRS (separate send and return and XLR-M returns on the better boards.

Do you (or the soundman) know if the board's insert returns are pre or post-EQ? You should know, or ask...to keep from making a silly request. Your soundguy should know, but maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. If you know, you can avoid the part where the green soundguy 'thinks' he's EQd the hell out of your vocals, but they're still muddy. Using your own preamp w/EQ would cover more scenarios.

[WARangelx2]

Originally Posted by Geddyleewannabe

I've never heard of anyone using their favorite mic pre for live vocal performance. Do people do this? If not, why not? My guess is that a nice Neve, API, or Great River would be much better than whatever preamp exists in whatever board the house or local hired soundman happens to have. Is my logic correct?

If this is a good idea, how do you bypass the micpre in the channelstrip your plugging your vocals into on the mixing board and use your own beloved mic pre?

Since I've never read any discussions on this, I wonder if my question has ignorance written all over it. Sorry if this is the case.

I remember reading about big live tours last year and tube tech mec 1's and c1's were mentioned multiple times being used by sound mixers on the vocalists. As a recall, a lot of these were rnb and pop acts / divas.

[opentune]

Interesting points in this thread. I can say that whenever the PA and the
location where good sounding i didn´t miss better preamps, since the
consoles were appropriate.

I´d lean towards bringing better compressors or reverbs whenever the
the rest (console, PA, location) is ok.

But well, all that has been mentioned before...



(...and then there´s these guys that bring an SPL Goldmike and Neumann´s
for the acoustic guitar and the sound guy isn´t even able to bring up
the guitar without a huge feedback orgy...)

[wwittman]

Because she's used to hearing her voice through really good preamps in the studio, we carry an API for front-of-house and a Daking for monitors on the road with Cyndi Lauper.

[tINY]

You know that you can spoil musicians with monitors that are to good, don't you?

The IEM is making monitor engineers work harder.

I still don't know if you can justify an outboard pre-amp at most venues, though. The Focusrite-whatever-it-is was nice because it had a good EQ and compressor built in. But something that's _just_ a pre-amp?




-tINY

[SparkyCanada]

Hey there.

Been schlepping my GR MP2NV between by studio & stage. I use one channel for my vocal mic (Neumann KMS 105) and the other channel for my acoustic guitar.

Both then go into a BSS DPR 402.

The good news is that we have a reasonably nice front end system (EAW) - and I noticed the improvement right away.

When we do gigs with other sound companies providing the front end - it's always fun to watch their reactions when I take the cover off my vocal/acoustic rack.

Also - just to mess with the sound people who think they know everything - I have a Funk Logic piece mounted at the top of the rack. I like to demonstrate the effects of this unit - and watch them fall for the bait - then show them the back of the rack

SparkyCanada

[smk]

My last big gig on new year's eve we used my Quartet for the main act and my 737 sp for me as the opening act through a Soundcraft board (forgot which model). Not sure if I heard that much of a difference with the 737 but the Quartet did sound pretty sweet through the McCallay (sp?) speakers (forgot which amp). Forgive me for forgetting, I was drunk... Oh, but I do remember that we used the high end Shure wireless mics (forgot which model)...

[TapeOp]

Originally Posted by johnnyvince

A thief could walk out the front door of the club with your API pre more easily than with your Les Paul.
Will it help your performance to look out and see your beloved pre being used as coaster for a pint of Guinness? Just a thought.

Is it be possible/feasible to put the mic pre-amp on stage near the band, 20 meters away (or more) from the desk..?

[opentune]

Originally Posted by TapeOp

Is it be possible/feasible to put the mic pre-amp on stage near the band, 20 meters away (or more) from the desk..?

Do that only if you can trust the band!

No seriously, that might work. You just have to keep in mind that you probably won´t have access to the preamp during the show - but a proper level setting
during the soundcheck should work for your show...

Then you might run a balanced line to a balanced insert (return) point
on the console - to avoid the console´s built-in preamp.

[kevinc]

Originally Posted by opentune

Do that only if you can trust the band!

NO !


I`m in a band and I wouldn`t even trust myself with that luxury.

[Marjan]

I suppose there would be a difference, and sure it is possible.
Is it really worth the trouble/risk? It depends...
But do people really care?
Common listeners are not freaks like us. They do actually listen to music, rather then gear.
Having said that, one of these days you'll probably find me doing just that.

Originally Posted by opentune

I can see dead people too... (Jules talking about how to detect DC offset on a DAT meter)

[opentune]

Originally Posted by Marjan

Having said that, one of these days you'll probably find me doing just that.

Haha, that was cool!

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Lots of bands use high end pres live. I used to do lights at a club in boston. in the late 90's early 2000's I saw lots of mid level band like 3 doors down, fuel etc...
bring in midas consoles but they used avalon pres, Ive seen some focusrite strips.
some ameks even some lower end pres.

Live you need tons of headroom to really bring the vocals out above the music
never saw any neves though.

What Allen said...

If you want to bring your favorite mic pre to your next live performance go for it.
Plug the output to the line input of the desk. Hey, for that matter you can keep it onstage with you and feed it thru the snake or run your own cable if we want.

[kennyken67]

Originally Posted by opentune

Do that only if you can trust the band!

No seriously, that might work. You just have to keep in mind that you probably won´t have access to the preamp during the show - but a proper level setting
during the soundcheck should work for your show...

Then you might run a balanced line to a balanced insert (return) point
on the console - to avoid the console´s built-in preamp.

as a FOH engineer I would not allow this, there's no chance for me to fix this issue quickly and ensure that the show goes on should something happen.

even with a good level set during rehearsals/sound check, there is always the possibility that some minor adjustments need to be made

[edva]

Originally Posted by Marjan

Common listeners are not freaks like us. They do actually listen to music, rather then gear.

Worth resurrecting this old thread just for this!

[Anton65]

Hey,sorry for old thread will be doing sound for a small gig with 4 artists, was thinking of using focusrite Isa1 for vocals and acoustic guitar.. Not sure what desk i'll be using yet but i will know soon.. Is this a bad idea? will be recording also but preamp doesn't have a/d card. thanks, help much appreciated

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Anton65

Hey,sorry for old thread will be doing sound for a small gig with 4 artists, was thinking of using focusrite Isa1 for vocals and acoustic guitar.. Not sure what desk i'll be using yet but i will know soon.. Is this a bad idea? will be recording also but preamp doesn't have a/d card. thanks, help much appreciated

The only downside is that you can alter FOH levels!

Yes, it can work if you also run FOH, or just split the mic so you can at least use the quality preamp for recording.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

The only downside is that you can alter FOH levels!

Give the engineer a heads up that you'll be sending him/her a line level signal. They shouldn't bat an eye. Once you've got your levels set at sound-check, don't change them. Leave a little headroom so you can get louder throughout the show without overloading the recording or FOH.

The ISA One will do you just fine. I have used a Focusrite ISA 220 for lead vocals on several occasions. Though it's time for me to move on: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...ip-d-card.html

[Boschen]

I did a system design two years ago where we put 16 channels of grace 801 in with a Soundcraft live 8. There's also a lunatec for live recordings, and several neumanns in the mic locker.

The board and gear is used by everyone from the open-mic coffeehouse dudes to the headliners and occasional punk band. The A1 has discretion as to what bands may use the neumanns, but everyone goes through the sixteen channels of grace before they hit the soundcraft (via the insert return).

Most folks visiting have been very pleased to see those racked 801s at FOH. I've never heard any complaints. If only they hadn't shoehorned FOH into the balcony...