Mattheus Passion, two choirs, two orchestras...need suggestions..

[T.RayBullard]

I am traveling with the Heidelberg Symphony and Chorale of the Holy Ghost Church (also Heidelberg) on a Cathedral tour, which I have the extreme pleasure of recording. All the venues are enormous cathedrals with soaking wet reverb.
Each night there will be two choirs and two orchestras.

choirs will be 50 deep(per choir). Choir_______Choir
two orchestras also (40 per) Orchestra_____Orchestra

orchestras are in front of the choirs, 20 feet seperation...

all soloists will be seated on the side and will walk to the front of the group for their pieces....
Anyone done this one with two choirs and orchestras??
Any suggestions?



Equipment
Mics
AKG 426b
Schoeps CMC62S Pair
Gefell M930 Pair
Gefell M300 Pair
U87s

Preamps
DAVs all the way baby! (10 channels)
mytek stereo 192 X 8 channels(borrowing one more for total of 10)
Zaxxcom DEVA V (10 channels)

Thanks to the folks on Recording.Org for great suggestions,and id love to have more, just to see how others would approach it. It is exciting and scary as hell all at once!

[pkautzsch]

Did a live MaPa last weekend with 14 mics in a 4sec reverb church in Kitzingen (Stadtkirche).
I had two spaced omnis as main pair (Neumann 183), an ORTF pair plus outriggers getting both orchestras and the cembalo in the middle, an EBS pair (25cm/90°) plus outriggers for choirs and coro in ripieno which was 30 children between the big choirs.
Plus two solo spots (Evang/Ladies and Bass/Christus) plus two LDCs on the two double basses.
Mics were four Neumann 184 for the orchestra, two Schoeps MK4 for EBS, two MK21 for choir flanks, 2 MBHO 604 cardioids for soloists, and I think an Oktava 219 and an AT3035 for the basses (which I ride at somewhat like -24 dB now, just a little touch of bass!)
All mics are at least (-)10dB lower than the main pair (I DID wonder about that, but that main pair was really great - in a church that I didn't know how it behaves with audience it must have been luck).

But orchestra was a little smaller: strings 5/4/3/2/1, 2 fl, 2 hb, 1 fag (and same thing for orch 2), 1 cembalo, 1 viola da gamba, 1 organ. How do you get to 40 players each?

I think it could even have been done with 10 mics when soloists would have been really in the middle right in front of the main pair.

[T.RayBullard]

Yeah, this one is in Friedberg in the Cathedral . What is EBS?? 40 players each. this instrumentation is what the the music director decided on, it is none of my business. I am just the recording guy. Ive spent my whole life on the other side of the conductor(I am a classically trained Basso Profundo/Schwarzer Bass), and it is very nice to not worry about these things! All I have to make sure is that my recording is good. I dont know how many fags we will have in the orchestra, Id ask but I dont want to offend anyone.

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

But orchestra was a little smaller: strings 5/4/3/2/1, 2 fl, 2 hb, 1 fag (and same thing for orch 2), 1 cembalo, 1 viola da gamba, 1 organ. How do you get to 40 players each?

I think it could even have been done with 10 mics when soloists would have been really in the middle right in front of the main pair.

I

[pkautzsch]

"1 fag"
oops, next time I'll write "fg" )

EBS is EBerhard Sengpiel's version of equivalence stereo. It's 2 cardioids angled +-45° (so a total of 90°) and spaced 25cm. According to experiments this results in a recorded area of also exactly 90° and thus is really easy to set up. Just put the stand where the mics aim at the edges of the orchestra/choir...Fire and Forget.
For those capable of reading German audio stuff:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Verglei...krofonSyst.pdf
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Richtun...BeiStereo5.pdf

The "sound" comes from the main pair, though. I can post some excerpts when it's complete.

[T.RayBullard]

Thanks man! I can read German so I will check those out! Ive had to learn German since ive been here since end of 01. Thanks again!

Teddy

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

"1 fag"
oops, next time I'll write "fg" )

EBS is EBerhard Sengpiel's version of equivalence stereo. It's 2 cardioids angled +-45° (so a total of 90°) and spaced 25cm. According to experiments this results in a recorded area of also exactly 90° and thus is really easy to set up. Just put the stand where the mics aim at the edges of the orchestra/choir...Fire and Forget.
For those capable of reading German audio stuff:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Verglei...krofonSyst.pdf
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Richtun...BeiStereo5.pdf

The "sound" comes from the main pair, though. I can post some excerpts when it's complete.

[pkautzsch]

Oh, cool. Where are you located? I'm based in Würzburg.

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Oh, cool. Where are you located? I'm based in Würzburg.

Heidelberg! Not too far from you I see!

Teddy

[pkautzsch]

Now this *is* cool. Do you know Christian Kabitz, the conductor of the Bachchor Heidelberg (and of the Bachchor Würzburg and the Cäcilienchor Frankfurt, too...)
You're not Micha Reuß, are you?

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Now this *is* cool. Do you know Christian Kabitz, the conductor of the Bachchor Heidelberg (and of the Bachchor Würzburg and the Cäcilienchor Frankfurt, too...)
You're not Micha Reuß, are you?

I dont know him, but know of him. I have sent them a few emails asking if they needed concerts recorded here in Heidelberg.

My name is Teddy Ray Bullard, im in the US Army Europe. Soldier by Day, classical singer/recordist at night.

Teddy

[pkautzsch]

I'm in his choir in Würzburg (and thus doing most of his choir recordings...which aren't that many though).
I'd never thought I'd use so many mics either - I started out with just a main pair. But it gives so much more presence and width...especially when having larger distances in a narrow but long church (similar to Heidelberg's Peterskirche) it's actually three main systems. All except the main pair are really very much lower than the main system, something like (-)18dB less than the main omnis.
6 to 8 mics are really the minimum for MaPa. Or JUST a main pair and nothing else.
with 8 mics maybe I'd have done something Decca-Tree-like, but not IN the orchestra, but in front of it, thus getting the soloists on the main triplet:

CHOIR -- KIDS -- CHOIR
card------card------card

ORCH 1 -CEMB- ORCH 2
SOLO -------------- SOLO
---omni---omni---omni



---------room pair-------


But since you have really big orchestras, this probably won't be enough (or you'll have to go really high like 6 m)

See the pdf for positioning and setup in Kitzingen.

[dizziness]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

I'm in his choir in Würzburg (and thus doing most of his choir recordings...which aren't that many though).
See the pdf for positioning and setup in Kitzingen.

Wow that's quite the diagram. I am curious of the performance and the use of the KM180-series... Any audio clips? Any live pictures? Thanks!

Chris

[pkautzsch]

I'll post some clips when the project is completed. Since I was monitoring on headphones only, and since it was a live recording with no second chance at all, it's all on multitrack and I'm still doing some automation and mixing.
I didn't take any pictures, maybe someone in the choir did. I'll try and ask them.

[dizziness]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

I'll post some clips when the project is completed. Since I was monitoring on headphones only, and since it was a live recording with no second chance at all, it's all on multitrack and I'm still doing some automation and mixing.
I didn't take any pictures, maybe someone in the choir did. I'll try and ask them.

Excellent. I look forward to them!

[T.RayBullard]

Heres the AKG 426b >>>DAV BG-1>>>>Mytek stereo 192 source. The AKG was set on blumlein. No edits yet, other than dither/resample. I kept my setup simple.
426b main pair, Schoeps MK2S pairs outriggers, Gefell M930s on Choir 1, M300s on choir 2. I really like keeping the track count down, I had more mics up originally but took them down after rehearsal. Didnt see a need for more. This was a valuable learning experience. Somehow this Haydns creation I have coming up doesnt seem so menacing after this.

http://s60.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...I0XWKCQMW3WH7W

[dizziness]

Originally Posted by BigRay

Heres the AKG 426b >>>DAV BG-1>>>>Mytek stereo 192 source. The AKG was set on blumlein. No edits yet, other than dither/resample. I kept my setup simple.
426b main pair, Schoeps MK2S pairs outriggers, Gefell M930s on Choir 1, M300s on choir 2. I really like keeping the track count down, I had more mics up originally but took them down after rehearsal. Didnt see a need for more. This was a valuable learning experience. Somehow this Haydns creation I have coming up doesnt seem so menacing after this.

http://s60.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...I0XWKCQMW3WH7W

Nice.... Are your MK2s or the Gefell going to solidify the center image? It's a bit hard panned for my taste but sweet all the same... I think I should be looking for one of the 426b mics!

I ask the panning question as I am deliberating between running my Royer SF-12 in M-S or Blumlein for a gig next week. The room behaves oddly (watch the goniometer go nuts with bass tones) and I thought MS might help correcting it in post. This 12 voice male chorus with string/organ accompaniment usually works well in Blumlein with Schoeps outriggers but this venue is a bit wacky. Long, narrow and tall.

Nicely done!

[T.RayBullard]

thanks for the kind words! That perspective is exactly how it was heard from an audience standpoint.I didnt pan anything during the recording. Blumlein had a lot to do with that seperation too. Im just going to leave it as is. I am a firm believer in not messing with the natural acoustics and orchestra setup in post. Its one of my goals in my recording work to let the mic techniques and knowledge of acoustics(still learning!) do all the work, and never to use any post production unless there are some glaring errors(IE clips, LF rumble, etc..). 426bs are very nice. Mine will be even nicer when it comes back from the mod shop. I hope one day to have such a knowledge and grasp of recording that I can do away with most(other than dither/resample) post production completely. Ive been picking the brains of Decca guys and Telarc and Pros here and elsewhere...learning from all of them. (whether what to do or not to do! ) Im going to be calling Andy Seagle today to see what he has to say.

Teddy

Originally Posted by dizziness

Nice.... Are your MK2s or the Gefell going to solidify the center image? It's a bit hard panned for my taste but sweet all the same... I think I should be looking for one of the 426b mics!

I ask the panning question as I am deliberating between running my Royer SF-12 in M-S or Blumlein for a gig next week. The room behaves oddly (watch the goniometer go nuts with bass tones) and I thought MS might help correcting it in post. This 12 voice male chorus with string/organ accompaniment usually works well in Blumlein with Schoeps outriggers but this venue is a bit wacky. Long, narrow and tall.

Nicely done!

[dizziness]

Originally Posted by BigRay

thanks for the kind words! That perspective is exactly how it was heard from an audience standpoint.I didnt pan anything during the recording. Blumlein had a lot to do with that seperation too. Im just going to leave it as is. I am a firm believer in not messing with the natural acoustics and orchestra setup in post. Its one of my goals in my recording work to let the mic techniques and knowledge of acoustics(still learning!) do all the work, and never to use any post production unless there are some glaring errors(IE clips, LF rumble, etc..).

Ah, I remember your description of the setup. I'm not opposed to heavy panning either, especially when using blumlein. I wish I could share your sentiment on acoustic presentation. Perhaps I could be so idyllic if I too recorded in a magnificent cathedral more often. We here in the states have crud for acoustic spaces. Too small, too dry, and too BORING.

Chris

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by dizziness

Ah, I remember your description of the setup. I'm not opposed to heavy panning either, especially when using blumlein. I wish I could share your sentiment on acoustic presentation. Perhaps I could be so idyllic if I too recorded in a magnificent cathedral more often. We here in the states have crud for acoustic spaces. Too small, too dry, and too BORING.

Chris

oh there are plenty of bad spaces here too . I do a lot of those type gigs too, though normally they are smaller groups(4tet, etc) ..Im busting my rear to get knowledge packed in my thick skull, so that I can get good at this craft. What I dont like hearing is "the technique isnt TOO important, we can fix it in the mixdown.."thats pretty much the opposite of what I want for my recordings. Lord knows though.. Im a dummy in the scheme of things. Im reminded of that every time I talk to one of the old timers. One day I hope to be so good as to let the setup do all the "editing and coloring".Im only here for another year, so im scouring out places to set up shop for when I get back stateside. I have been spoiled here though, admittedly. Culture is serious business here, a way of life. The gig I work full time is a Cathedral that is all stone, many hundred years old! In one section, the Reverb is about 5-6 seconds.

[larsfarm]

Originally Posted by BigRay

Heres the AKG 426b >>>DAV BG-1>>>>Mytek stereo 192 source. The AKG was set on blumlein. No edits yet, other than dither/resample. I kept my setup simple.
426b main pair, Schoeps MK2S pairs outriggers, Gefell M930s on Choir 1, M300s on choir 2.

Very nice! Could you let us in on a little bit more detail about mic placement, distances, heights. Where was she relative the 426, the MK2Ss? How far from the violins were the mics?

Any pictures?

best regards
Lars

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by larsfarm

Very nice! Could you let us in on a little bit more detail about mic placement, distances, heights. Where was she relative the 426, the MK2Ss? How far from the violins were the mics?

Any pictures?

best regards
Lars

that sample was only the AKG c426b>>DAV>>mytek . no other mics in that sample.
the 426 is a stereo mic, and was set on blumlein, about 8' up and id say 15-20 feet from the performer. The violins were about 10 feet behind the Alto.

[T.RayBullard]

this is my custom bar with meter split mounts and a mount in the middle. The 426 is in the middle there. schoeps on the outside.



this doesnt really show distances and was only a rehearsal...but oh well!426 in the middle.

[larsfarm]

Originally Posted by BigRay

that sample was only the AKG c426b>>DAV>>mytek . no other mics in that sample.
the 426 is a stereo mic, and was set on blumlein, about 8' up and id say 15-20 feet from the performer. The violins were about 10 feet behind the Alto.

Thank you! I'm a bit surprised by the characteristic of Blumlein (or perhaps the C426). I'd have thought that with its back lobes it would pick up more reverb in a place like that. 4-6m from the alto and more, perhaps 5-8m (15-25') from the violins and all other musicians further away yet. Not to mention the choirs further away still.

I've tried cardioids in many configurations, omnis too and am more often than not surprised by the amount of reverb I get. Fig-8 and blumlein is something I still haven't tried, but it's obviously worth investigating.

best regards
Lars

[pkautzsch]

That's interesting to see a main pair that low - I mean, 8ft is something like 2.6 m...??
So far, no photos from my MaPa session, but at least an mp3 of the finished work.
I ended up using the choir mics only at about -18dB, and the orchestra ORTF pair at -10. The orchestra outriggers were at about -6, soloist -12. So what one hears is mostly the main pair.

What data format is .flac and how can I listen to it?

[T.RayBullard]

.flac is .flac

it is a lossless compressed format that I am very fond of. Compressed, but not lossy like MP3. Smaller than wav, which I like. winamp, windows media player, foobar, and many other programs will play the format. Many on mac too.

or you can use Flac Frontend to decode from Flac to Wav and vice versa.

http://members.home.nl/w.speek/flac.htm

[pkautzsch]

Ah, WMplayer plays it indeed.
As other posters already wrote, it seems a little spread. I guess the Blumlein did not point right to the outer edges of the orchestra? I'm not saying it was not good though: that 2-orchestra 2-choir setup can have a little more separation than most symphonic works. (I heard a MaPa from Munich on the radio this afternoon, and it was terribly muddy, and one couldn't really tell which orchestra was playing).
Could you post an example with both choirs? Would be interesting what Blumlein does with the choirs.

Here's just the main mic of my No. 20:

[pkautzsch]

And here's No. 1 with the kids:

[dizziness]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

And here's No. 1 with the kids:

Wow! Thanks pkautzsch! Very illuminating... Once again, this is the relevant diagram of your micing scheme?

CHOIR -- KIDS -- CHOIR
card------card------card

ORCH 1 -CEMB- ORCH 2
SOLO -------------- SOLO
---omni---omni---omni



---------room pair-------

So, the main pair samples are KM183 pair only? Then the others use ORTF KM184 down -10 on the orchestras and then MK4/MK21 on the choirs down -18? Then KM184 outriggers down -6? I've not used cardiods for outriggers if that's the case...

Fascinating case study. Thanks!

[T.RayBullard]

Im not surprised that it was spread, as the Alt was one one end of the stage and the violin was all the way on the other.Blumlein is good for spread too. I heard the MaPA from munich today too. ACH! Horrible. Did they use Radio Shack mics??

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Ah, WMplayer plays it indeed.
As other posters already wrote, it seems a little spread. I guess the Blumlein did not point right to the outer edges of the orchestra? I'm not saying it was not good though: that 2-orchestra 2-choir setup can have a little more separation than most symphonic works. (I heard a MaPa from Munich on the radio this afternoon, and it was terribly muddy, and one couldn't really tell which orchestra was playing).
Could you post an example with both choirs? Would be interesting what Blumlein does with the choirs.

Here's just the main mic of my No. 20:

[pkautzsch]

The relevant diagram is in the pdf...
basically:

--choir I-kids-choir II--
--MK21--2 MK4--MK 21-
---d.bs---------------d.bs
---219----------------3035
Orch I---cemb---Orch II
--Vl1-----2 184----Vl2--
-184-----------------184-
chr-basso---ladies-evang
MBHO------------------------
----------2 183-------MBHO

it's not easy to explain this in text-only style
That other diagram you cited was about what I'd have started with if I only had had 8 channels.

The "outrigger" type 184s are just for 5 1st violins each. those were out of the main area of the ORTF pair.
If it wasn't for the choir being too far away on the main mic, I'd probably only have used the main pair.

The jpg shows the angles that occupy the space between the speakers: everything outside of those lines will appear hard left/right from the corresponding mic pair.
the pink areas are what the spot mics were covering.

[dizziness]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

The relevant diagram is in the pdf...
basically:

--choir I-kids-choir II--
--MK21--2 MK4--MK 21-
---d.bs---------------d.bs
---219----------------3035
Orch I---cemb---Orch II
--Vl1-----2 184----Vl2--
-184-----------------184-
chr-basso---ladies-evang
MBHO------------------------
----------2 183-------MBHO

Sweet, I got it. I thought your results were outstanding and the comparison was very useful. I liked the Neumann's (180 series); it's a shame those get such disparaging remarks on this forum...

Chris