Do you time align your mics when recording orchestras?

[leifislive]

Hi,

I have not thought about that very much in detail so far and I am therefore new to this issue. I have made the experience, that when time aligning the spot mics to the main mic, the overallmix gains a significant amolunt of transparency, much more then I estimated.

I recorded Shostakovitch 5 with a friend's orchestra and wanted to evaluate different setups: an ORTF-like with wide cardioids with outriggers vs. a wide spread Tree (roughly a little behind the heads of the first stands) with two outriggers; spots for the concert master (solo), bass and between first trumpet/trombone (channel limits). Concert room was a kind of a town hall with little reverb. I finally found to take all mics is the best solution, when aligning them to the main ORTF-like. Unfortunately I had to estimate the values and correct by ear, since I didn't measure the distances when recording because I didn't assume to need it.

What do you do?

Thanks for any helpful reply and comment.

Best

Leif

[fifthcircle]

I time align all spot mics to the nearest front mics. Harp usually is measured to the left flank mic, woodwinds to the center, etc...

As to how I align, it depends... I do it mostly by ear, sometimes, I'll do an impulse and measure it in the DAW to get it exact. It can change depending on the mix, though. If I use more verb, I may lower the time of the alignment, etc... Sometimes soloists get a bit more than the exact alignment as I want to push them back in the mix.

--Ben

[Remoteness]

We have definitely time aligned the spots (and other distant mics) to match the main front pair.

[leifislive]

Thanks for the responses,

that's interesting, since I had a chat with Eberhard Sengpiel (you may know him), who told me, he does not time align his orchestras recording because on the one hand side his spots are too far away for time aligning (3m) and on the other hand because he uses analog conslos for mixing.

Again, thank you for your responses,

Best,
Leif

[Roland]

I have at times "time aligned" spot mics, however in more recent years I have found little benefit in this. My justification is that spots are in 3D space and therefore it is practically impossible to get a time alignement that relates accurately to all the front mics (and potentially other spots) together with the added potential problem that time aligning mics can lead to comb filtering effects.

A few years ago some interesting listening tests were run (by studio sound I think) where several top classical engineers were bought together and blind comparisons were made between recordings with and without the spots being time aligned. Universally the non time aligned versions were prefered which surprised most of the participants.

Regards


Roland

[frans]

How do you time align each mic with each other mic? Like, one spot mic with the ORTF, allright, but two spot mics with the ORTF AND with each other? Or with even more spot mics?
I have come to the conclusion it is sufficient to phasealign the mics while setting them up - according to circumstances by ear/waveform in the editor /or with burst-signals or sine waves i send from a speaker I place in the sweet spot. While I wear my white labcoat....

[Roland]

Originally Posted by frans

How do you time align each mic with each other mic? Like, one spot mic with the ORTF, allright, but two spot mics with the ORTF AND with each other? Or with even more spot mics?
I have come to the conclusion it is sufficient to phasealign the mics while setting them up - according to circumstances by ear/waveform in the editor /or with burst-signals or sine waves i send from a speaker I place in the sweet spot. While I wear my white labcoat....

That was the point I was making above.

Phase alignment also has potentially the same problems because of the same issues you mentioned above.

Regards


Roland

[frans]

"Phase alignment also has potentially the same problems because of the same issues you mentioned above."

Exactly. Peak is the enemy, texture your friend. If you notice phasetrouble, set the mics up at other places. I sometimes even use my ears. Doesn't hurt to pull the test/trick with the sine anyway... at least you look like... really smart.

[leifislive]

Originally Posted by frans

How do you time align each mic with each other mic? Like, one spot mic with the ORTF, allright, but two spot mics with the ORTF AND with each other? Or with even more spot mics?

That is true.... Listening again to my files I found out, that I may prefer the "time aligned version" because it results in a comb filter, that helps to "filter" the percussion section, especially the timpani, which is preferable with the Shostakovich symphony. On the other hand 3D imaging is however deteriorated; I have to admit that I yesterday evening/today morning was kind of "status post vinum" and I was basically kind of impressed by the percussion sound not paying attention to the rest...


@ fifth circle: Do you use hypercardioid/figure eights for spots and go really close?

@ frans: what exactly do you mean by phase aligning?

Thanks for your responses,

Best,

Leif

[frans]

Time aligned looks good, but peak heaped on peak...pfwrrr...you either loose headroom or the overall signal gets too low. (by the way, how do you time align, say, 2mm if you have a too low sampling rate - calculate the length a single sample delay on the DAW has with your sample frequency!)
Phase align, well...let's say you have your ORTF on and then bring the spot mic on the kettledrum up, slowly. Maybe you are hearing a "smear" in a certain range of the fade - hit the phase button. If the kettledrum sounds more solid with the phasebutton in, your spot mic is out of phase with the ORTF. This could happen, it depends on mic placement and the room. Nothing new, so far.
Instead of explaining everything with nearfield/diffuse/room theories/facts ...just move the spotmic a little and try again - if you hear phasetrouble in the low bass prepare for moving it more than a little. In extreme cases, I would move the kettledrum alltogether. Imagine a whole sea of waves, just like in the ocean - you don't want your spot mic to be in a place where the water ebbs away every time it rises in the ORTF. At exactly which place in time the spot mic is doesn't matter (milliseconds-wise!) as long as it is in the "flow". What could be irritating is, if you hear the spot mic before the orchestra, so hit your delay in case...but again watch out for the ebb and flow. More mics, more trouble....

[leifislive]

Frans, I got it, thanks for the explanation.

Best

Leif

[Roland]

Originally Posted by frans

Time aligned looks good, but peak heaped on peak...pfwrrr...you either loose headroom or the overall signal gets too low. (by the way, how do you time align, say, 2mm if you have a too low sampling rate - calculate the length a single sample delay on the DAW has with your sample frequency!)
Phase align, well...let's say you have your ORTF on and then bring the spot mic on the kettledrum up, slowly. Maybe you are hearing a "smear" in a certain range of the fade - hit the phase button. If the kettledrum sounds more solid with the phasebutton in, your spot mic is out of phase with the ORTF. This could happen, it depends on mic placement and the room. Nothing new, so far.
Instead of explaining everything with nearfield/diffuse/room theories/facts ...just move the spotmic a little and try again - if you hear phasetrouble in the low bass prepare for moving it more than a little. In extreme cases, I would move the kettledrum alltogether. Imagine a whole sea of waves, just like in the ocean - you don't want your spot mic to be in a place where the water ebbs away every time it rises in the ORTF. At exactly which place in time the spot mic is doesn't matter (milliseconds-wise!) as long as it is in the "flow". What could be irritating is, if you hear the spot mic before the orchestra, so hit your delay in case...but again watch out for the ebb and flow. More mics, more trouble....

True, but phase is rarely absolute, therefore in-phase at one particular frequency is going to be out at other frequencies hence the comb filtering effect.

Obviously "less is best", but often balance issues may outweight this being the best overall solution. I for one follow the philosophy that if it sounds good it is good.

Regards to all

Roland

[leifislive]

Originally Posted by Roland

if it sounds good it is good

Period.

Leif

[Remoteness]

Our ears are our best judge.

[fifthcircle]

Leif-

I use whatever mics sound best on a given instrument. Sometimes, they are hypercardiod or fig-8, but just as often they are cardiods, sub cardiods or omnis (especially when I'm doing choral work).

As I was inferring in my post, the time alignment is not always exact. In the end, it all comes down to what it sounds like. I use the exact as a starting point, but then from there, I go by what I'm hearing and factors like ambience can affect that. One thing that bugs me to no end, though, is in a traditional orchestra hearing the woodwinds or other distant instruments sound like they are in front of the strings.

Now, when working with a studio orchestra with lots of mics, I do not time align. I don't even bother trying. There are so many phase issues to work out that it is more important to get a solid sound. Also, the style of that orchestra is going to be more present anyways so the non-aligned sound is usually more appropriate. If I have a soloist in front of that group, their mic may get a delay because of the comb filtering that can happen when a hot solo mic is only a few feet away from a main pair.

--Ben

[leifislive]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

One thing that bugs me to no end, though, is in a traditional orchestra hearing the woodwinds or other distant instruments sound like they are in front of the strings.

Thanks for your answer, the quoted issue is something that I cannot stand as well. In the end sound decides... I will keep on experimenting with time aligning.

Thanks for all your ideas so far.

Best

Leif

[sonare]

Time alignment is best done by using the distance plus 10% to avoid comb filtering-- see the DPA mic university site.

To my ear the difference is like a camera being slightly out of focus.

Rich

[klangumwandler]

When I was at Moscow Conservatory's Tchaikovsky Hall, the resident engineer told me that when DG recorded there they used some laser-pointer type device to ensure all spot mics (and that lots of them) were at specific ratios to the main pair. Regardless, neither of us are very fond of their recordings, though it's not necessarily due to this technique. I was also told that they used a lot of MKH mics and all Yamaha preamps and console--they have some endorsement deal, though apparently their stuff is customized.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by klangumwandler

When I was at Moscow Conservatory's Tchaikovsky Hall, the resident engineer told me that when DG recorded there they used some laser-pointer type device to ensure all spot mics (and that lots of them) were at specific ratios to the main pair. Regardless, neither of us are very fond of their recordings, though it's not necessarily due to this technique. I was also told that they used a lot of MKH mics and all Yamaha preamps and console--they have some endorsement deal, though apparently their stuff is customized.

The Yamaha console thing with DG was a good number of years ago when they took delivery of the DM1000 consoles. In more recent years I have seen them use a lot of Schoepes, the Sennheiser mic's are great, a lot has to do with how you use them.

Regards


Roland

[klangumwandler]

Yes--it's no critique of the Sennheisers, I own a pair of MKH40's that I often use in ORTF myself. Actually, the Tchaikovsky Hall guys used them most often for their own sessions as well, their B&K's and Soundfield matrix box were fried and they had no budget to get them repaired.

Best,

James

Originally Posted by Roland

The Yamaha console thing with DG was a good number of years ago when they took delivery of the DM1000 consoles. In more recent years I have seen them use a lot of Schoepes, the Sennheiser mic's are great, a lot has to do with how you use them.

Regards


Roland