New portable recorders not good enough - Why not? When will the better ones come??

[Ozpeter]

Democratize Recording is their watchword.

I wouldn't argue with that. But I welcome it - it's the future of the craft to draw in "Everyman" from amongst whose number the next generation of fully professional and equipped sound engineers will come. And along the way, the equipment of this type will find entirely appropriate uses to make some very fine recordings in their own right, in the right hands.

The original poster is coming up from the Zoom H2 and Microtrack. And he confesses to mangling the recordings a fair bit afterwards in post-production, and himself doubts the necessity to go for the most exotic equipment. I think his instincts to go for the price bracket he's looking at are probably correct, for his purposes. He's just wishing that there was something newer and better in that price area than the devices he has listed, given the time that has elapsed since they came on the market.

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

The original poster is coming up from the Zoom H2 and Microtrack. And he confesses to mangling the recordings a fair bit afterwards in post-production, and himself doubts the necessity to go for the most exotic equipment. I think his instincts to go for the price bracket he's looking at are probably correct, for his purposes. He's just wishing that there was something newer and better in that price area than the devices he has listed, given the time that has elapsed since they came on the market.

I was the same with my H4N.....but I already had one Fethead and so, after testing it with the H4N and getting great improvements, it was a no-brainer to buy another Fethead for not much money, as opposed to buying a new better recorder for loads more money. Of course, this is not possible with a Zoom H2.....

[panatrope]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

Totally meaningless elitist rubbish.

I suspect our Chicago colleague may be prone to linguistic extravagance. (For example, I not been able to obtain a objective etymological derivation of the expression "mudderduggin great cello" for example.) Perhaps this is an example of the Shavian Dichotomy.*

My colleague, Ozpeter, was born within the sound of Bow Bells (though he may have needed the aid of a large ear-trumpet, or an MKH816 with a very good preamp), and thus I am reminded of the pronouncements of Henry Higgins on the steps of Covent Garden.

Perhaps if "Pygmalion" had been written in America, Plush may have been a ringer for the role of Alfred P Doolittle. With the indulgence of our kind moderator, perhaps followers of this thread might like to suggest suitable candidates (from within our ranks) for the prototypes of Henry Higgins and Colonel Pickering. Unfortunately the paucity of female members of this forum posses great difficulty in nominating the possible prototype of Eliza Doolittle ... but try anyway.

But I digress ...

[*The observation by GBS that "Britain and America are two great nations, separated only by a common language".]

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by akej

Portable Recorder Noise: The Sounds of Silence

Thank you very much for posting that. The only really quiet one is the Sony PCM D1, which is really hideously expensive. Then there is all the others. And the H4N is better than average to my ears.

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by richgilb

The only really quiet one is the Sony PCM D1

I thought the FR2-LE was really quiet.

[Foldedpath]

Originally Posted by apple-q

If you want an excelent midprice portable setup get an SD Mix-Pre D (around 800$) and the cheapest recorder with digital input.
Or a Nagra SD (around 1000$).

It's not that this price-segment doesn't exist, you just need to look outside the edirol, zoom etc. "plastic segment" and you will find some things with excelent audio specs far ahead of the cheapo-segment.

That's the best answer for the OP, right there. It's what I'd do, if I only needed to record 2 tracks and needed battery operation.

As it is, my own "People's Democratized Recording" solution is the Tascam DR-680, although I do mostly feed the line inputs from an outboard preamp rack. It's easier to miniaturize a good A/D converter, than it is to miniaturize what my big AC-powered mic preamps can do.

The real "democratizing recording" is happening with smartphones. I think the entire market for sub-$1,000 2-track standalone recorders like the various Zooms, Sony, Marantz et al will disappear in the next few years, as smartphone capability keeps growing. Phones are already killing off the lower-priced, fixed-lens still camera and HD camcorder market. With A/D conversion inside the phone, all you need is a decent plug-in mini preamp and mic module. I'd be surprised if manufacturers like Zoom aren't already planning for this kind of market turnover, and gearing up for the switch to phone accessories instead of standalone recorders.

[jmcarlock]

Sound Devices USBPre 2 is a great option too, it can be used standalone as the MixPre-D can or with a computer.

[jnorman]

folded path - i would love to hear a comparison of the internal 680 preamps vs your outboard units. i am trying to get completely away from having to rely on convenient AC power at remote venues.

[akej]

Thanks for all the suggestions and thoughts! I found out that I can order a oade super/FET mod PMD661 through a friend of a friend who lives in USA. So maybe thats the best idea for me.

Answers to some suggestions: I don't have the microtrack anymore, so I cant use that for bit bucket. The idea with the Mixpre-D seems like a really good idea regarding sound quality, but I would like to keep things simple, just one device to bring (with batteries to load) for ease of use. Nagra SD doesn't have phantom power, and I want to try different stereo techniques. Can the Fetheads with H4n really replace a good preamp?

PMD661 weighs only about 500g with batteries, that will make the kit easy to bring with me. The moded version seems like a good enough solution for me (for now).

I find the high-end vs budget-gear discussion here very interesting. When I first planned to upgrade from the H2 I was planning to get a ZoomH4n with Oktava mk012 mics, or similiar. But the more I've read and listened I had to change my plans. Now I will save my money for a while to get some better things. I had almost decided to go for the Beyer MC930 mics instead of the Oktavas, but now I consider waiting even longer to buy MKH8040 mics instead, then I won't have to upgrade even for many years. So maybe next time I can get something like the 702 recorder since I won't have to get new mics at the same time. But then I will have to keep using the H2 for several months now, not so fun after listening to recordings with mkh8040 and MC930 and nice recorders...

[SmokinJoe]

There was an Oade Mod Marantz Pmd671 on ebay for weeks for $475. That should be pretty quiet. Yes, a bit larger than handheld.

[bcgood]

I've heard some samples of the Roland R-26 in action and the stereo recordings where very nice. This is an innovative concept and the resultant recordings of the omni and cardiod pairs recording simultaneously did sound very nice. An older recorder, the Roland R-05 won a shoot out I heard among several other hand held recorders in it's price range. I am very interested to try out a Roland R-26 for myself. Roland makes a lot of really good, innovative stuff.

[ErikG]

I received my Roland R-26 yesterday and did a few test with it.
I compared it to the Sony M10. The M10 is the reigning champion of low noise in the small recorders.

Intended use is sound fx and ambience recording. Not recording music or band practice etc.

A few first impressions as posted elsewhere:

Roland R-26 received and I've done some first very short tests in noisy surroundings, i.e. at home with kids playing and TV on in another room... I did simultaneous recordings with Sony M10 and Roland R-26

Important part first, SOUND:

The very first high gain recordings with the internal mics did not compare to well with the Sony M10 regarding noise. But I'll have to get better at setting the levels comparatively correct (otherwise the noise comparison will not be close to fair or even remotely usable as a comparison to make a real evaluation. And the SonyM10 is only beaten/rivalled in noise floor by its larger and more expensive brother D50. All other recorders using the internal mics are noisier than those two models.

I had really high hopes for it, and I still think it sounds quite good, but I dont think it will really be the D50 killer I had hoped for. The omnis sound full and nice, they have a lot more high end and slightly less low end than the Sony, but I think they are noisier then the Sony ones. The XY mics have impressive stereo separation and a very narrow angle (incorrect english: they feel more like hyper cardioid then tomatoes...) but they are quite a bit noisier than the omni's at the high sens setting. They are also very sensitive to noise and physical handling of the unit.

But here's the interesting bit... When changing to mid or low sensitivity and actually recording at more "sensible levels" the difference is a lot less between the two units, the R-26 might even have less noise at those levels...

Realistically I would not use the internal mics to record really low level sounds anyway.

IN USE: Easy to use. After quickly browsing the manual online a few days ago I could quite easily find all the relevant menus and settings, I have yet needed to look at the manual. Moving and renaming files etc is quite easy, but feels a bit archaic and old school compared to modern tech like an iphone. OTOH it can do stuff that no other handheld portable recorder can. No manual setting of the individual level of the XY mics compared to the omni's. No big deal as they are physically close enough to give similar levels anyway. Additional drawback: its not possible to use the omnis and the plugin powered input at the same time as they share mic amps. When recording several channels there is a separate (software) monitor section allowing you to chose what tracks to listen to and how to mix them to the phones output. The round level "faders" are smooth and easy to adjust while recording without introducing any noise (but handling noise).

I didn't have any proper mics at home but will do some more tests at work tomorrow. Sennheiser mkh 40 should do as a pretty decent low noise reference mic.

This is a very first reflection and I'll try to write up something proper in a day or two.

I like it a lot but am yet to be totally convinced if its the best solution for my needs. It will very much depend on how the main mic amps sound with external microphones. The internal mics are good but perhaps not great.

Now, time for some outdoor night time ambience recording :-)

UPDATE:
OK, I recorded some pretty bland outdoor ambience, a light breeze and some distant traffic in my back yard. I recorded with both the Sony and XY and omnis. And I have to say that while the directional character of the XY's is strong the sound it makes isnt so. The M10 still had the best depth and charachter of the three alternatives at hand. The Roland omni's wasnt at all bad, just not quite as well defined somehow, it was a little easier to pick out the different way-distant elements on the M10 recording than on the R26 omnis.

The R26 XY mics really left a lot to wish for. Pretty poor definition only a little depth and to much noise. I so much want to like this recorder that I will give it a few more days of testing and I also need to test the other inputs tomorrow. But so far i'm not too impressed with the most important part: the sound of the mics and pre's.

ErikG

[apple-q]

another aspect of buying cheap and compromised gear:
Many people I know are already on their second or even third cheap recorder and still don't have great pres.
For the money they have spent by now they could easily have bought a second hand 702 or even new 702 in the first place.

There's a saying here: If you buy cheap you buy (pay) double.

the mix pre d will be very compact even with a microtrack taped to it. and you can use it for multiple other things. audio-interface for PT9, mixer for a DSLR shoot etc. etc.
And it's value won't be zero as soon as the next plastic recorder comes out next week.

Companies like Roland, Zoom etc. were never famous for making top notch mic pres regardless the price. I think unless one of the top location gear mfg makes a hand-held all-in-one recorder there never be one in the 1000$ segment.
It's one thing to make a great mic pre in 19" format but to squeeze it into a battery driven box is a whole other story. reliable P48 from 2 AA cells isn't trivial either.
You can't expect that within 2 years time the wheel is re-invented in electronics and you can expect a recorder with 10dB less noise for half the price. this is analog technology and there are finite borders of what can be done for the money.

[ErikG]

Just à quick comment, I recorded a little with external mkh mics using the r26 pres. Sounded great, super defined and low noise and lots of gain. I have yet to compare it with a Sound devices pre or the cantar.
I recorded with full gain on the mkh 40+30 mics, not as ms as I forgot a proper "cradle". I could def hear some low mid noise, suddenly it stopped. It was the neighbours two houses down the street vacuuming.
I will try to do proper comparison tomorrow with a SD pre before I make a real judgment.
So I think the major issue on the r26 are the mic elements.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by jnorman

folded path - i would love to hear a comparison of the internal 680 preamps vs your outboard units. i am trying to get completely away from having to rely on convenient AC power at remote venues.

Some comparisons of the R44:

Oade Edirol R44 v. Benchmark Preamps (in a real world setting)

Oade Edirol R44 v. Great River (ambient test, turned WAY up)

Anyone have 680 samples?

[akej]

Originally Posted by ErikG

Just à quick comment, I recorded a little with external mkh mics using the r26 pres. Sounded great, super defined and low noise and lots of gain. I have yet to compare it with a Sound devices pre or the cantar.
I recorded with full gain on the mkh 40+30 mics, not as ms as I forgot a proper "cradle". I could def hear some low mid noise, suddenly it stopped. It was the neighbours two houses down the street vacuuming.
I will try to do proper comparison tomorrow with a SD pre before I make a real judgment.
So I think the major issue on the r26 are the mic elements.

I would really appreciate to hear some samples recorded with your MKH+R26 combination, some quiet atmo and some close-miked sound! Anything...

[ErikG]

Will use it tomorrow for some ambience and crowd recordings. I might have the time to do a little mini shootout in the studio as well before the actual recordings commences.
But all the main location recorders are on location. I can compare with M10, fireface 800 with Sound devices pre. And I'll record with the internals as well.

[Ozpeter]

ErikG, thanks for the interesting review of the R26. To me it seems like (apart from the inevitable price-point limitations) that you are encountering the inherent differences between omni and cardioid mics.

For me, closely spaced omni mics provide a certain sound and lower noise than cardioid but the stereo image is bound to be very poor. You won't find any recommendations to use very closely spaced omnis for stereo on the net. It's simply doesn't work. So you have to decide whether the stereo image is important or not. About all you can do to help a two-omni mic recording is to use an MS-based EQ plugin to attempt to get the low frequencies out from the middle where they naturally 'clump' together if you use omnis.

[Ozpeter]

this is analog technology and there are finite borders of what can be done for the money.

If very high quality preamps can only be made using discrete components rather than mass-produced surface mount technologies, then yes, there may be a limit to what can be done. But if it's possible to mass produce and someone feels the market it there, maybe it will happen.

However, the fact that the H2N was released something like four years after the H2, and yet there is little audible difference in its internal mics and internal mic preamp compared with the earlier model perhaps shows that limits are being reached in terms of what can be done at the price. (Fortunately the external mic input on the new model is radically better than on the old one, but the old one was so bad in comparison to others at the time that one has to suppose that it was some kind of mistake!).

The new Tascam model however is about the same price as the H2N but boasts proper inputs - whether it compares well with similarly specced more expensive devices remains to be seen. If so, it would show that we are still getting more for less. Big "if"!

[Jim Williams]

There are better ones already out. Nagra is pretty good but only $9900.

Now if you are looking at the "un-washed masses" products, that new Zoom H2n claims better mics, full surround, M/S, X/Y.

Then you got those little Korg DSD recorders, etc.

Now what was the problem?

[akej]

If I go for the mixpre-D, which portable recorder is good to use with it? Can I use something like the olympus LS11 or Zoom h2, or are the line-inputs on them noisy too? Does it have to be some larger/more expensive device with digital in? I can't find a small recorder with digital input, are there any?

What are the main differencies between using the Mixpre-D+??? and the Oade Super Mod PMD661? Big differencies in noise or sound-qaulity?

[Daniel Stark]

Recently I got a Roland vs-100, it's an audio interface that works as a flash recorder as well. I would totally recommend it to anyone needing a cheap-ish location recorder (but no batteries or built-in mics).

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by akej

If I go for the mixpre-D, which portable recorder is good to use with it? Can I use something like the olympus LS11 or Zoom h2, or are the line-inputs on them noisy too? Does it have to be some larger/more expensive device with digital in? I can't find a small recorder with digital input, are there any?

What are the main differencies between using the Mixpre-D+??? and the Oade Super Mod PMD661? Big differencies in noise or sound-qaulity?

microtrack II has dgital in.

[MBishopSFX]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Korg MR-1000 for portable use. Combined with Sennheiser MKH series or Sanken CO-100K mics and it makes a pretty nice portable recorder - that also records/plays hi-rez PCM or DSD.

.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Then you got those little Korg DSD recorders, etc.

Now what was the problem?

Finally got a chance to quote myself. I thought it would feel better than it does...

[Dan Steinberg]

I agree with some of the other posters here that the Microtrack II is quite useful due to its S/Pdif digital input (a feature that quite a few other budget recorders lack).

That specific feature is why I bought mine, and it has been very convenient to be able to use it as a "bit bucket" with a wide variety of outboard preamps and converters, of varying levels of size, price, and quality. I pair it with different sources depending on the specific project environment.

Although a 2-piece solution is not as convenient, I feel that splitting up the recorder (with digital in) from the mic pre/A/D converter gives you more choices, in general.

Thanks!

[avebr]

I have a Microtrack II, wich is really noisy/almost a toy... but has spdif in. And was actually very cheap.

So I bought a SD USBPre2 and two USB battery packs, and now I have a very nice 2ch setup - somewhat still 'portable' - but excellent quality.
And I can use any condenser!

I must say that USBPre2 is one of the best money I've spent...


PS: in between 2ch and my full setup, SD 788T is still on my list.


all the best,
ave.

[Boschen]

+100 to the last few posts....

This is what I use. Grace lunatec into Microtrack. Both used, so rig cost about $1000. It sounds freakin' fantastic when I choose mics that work well with my Grace. Small, portable, and for the price, unbeatable.
Only problem is I don't have a backup, so it's not suitable for critical stuff.

[martyrX]

Originally Posted by avebr

I have a Microtrack II, wich is really noisy/almost a toy... but has spdif in. And was actually very cheap.

So I bought a SD USBPre2 and two USB battery packs, and now I have a very nice 2ch setup - somewhat still 'portable' - but excellent quality.
And I can use any condenser!

I must say that USBPre2 is one of the best money I've spent...


PS: in between 2ch and my full setup, SD 788T is still on my list.


all the best,
ave.

Your setup sounds great - what kind of usb battery pack do you use?

[avebr]

Originally Posted by martyrX

Your setup sounds great - what kind of usb battery pack do you use?

Hello martyrX,

I use these two USB batteries:

-Tekkeon myPower ALL Plus MP3450i Battery (ca. US$ 120) - it's a univ. battery to provide up to 5-19V of power to various portable devices incl. laptops (and portable DVD and CD players, iPods, MP3 players, thru USB e other connectors). I know it's "expensive" and biggie (like a half-height vhs tape), but it is really strong - it powered my USBPre2 with both phanton power on for 2h+, and it expent less than 10% of full charge!!!

-veho VCC-A008-PBP-XT Pebble XT Portable Battery Pack Charger (ca. US$ 30) - univ. battery for generic USB devices (IPhone, iPod models, mobile phones, digital cameras, camcorders, GPS devices, Nintendo DS, PSP, and many more. My MicrotrackII internal battery is still ok, so I use this battery as a backup.

They work great for me but that's just my personal experience... it's still very portable and sounds great!

.. and always a learning experience to go back to "pure" stereo techniques!

all the best,
Ave.


PS: here goes a photo of this portable setup (on a chair, behind the curtains, during a concert)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._6025622_n.jpg