What analog live board makes a show sound the most like a record?

[Nathanael PCB]

I never found the faders to react that way when I first used one, but the console we hired belonged to a guy who was helping Soundcraft rewrite the software. This was 5-6 years ago.
These days I am limited mostly to a LS9 which is easy to get going for a typical theatre show with multiple in and outs but then it runs out of gas and is locked out in so many ways. I have had many issues with loading shows on this console. Some times routing settings change from file to file. Weird safe mode settings that no one programmed. No input delay only output delays. However you can loop the 2tk I/O then insert those over the channels you want to delay, then add a MYAT card and loop it's I/O to get more delay inserts.

As long as the L'Acoustics stays in it doesn't really matter what console you use.

[stringbean01]

cant stand yamaha boards. gross. gross.

[fifthcircle]

Yamaha consoles I find are generally amazingly stable. With the larger ones, you have some particular recall safe options that can screw you, however. The m7 had some bugs a couple software versions back that caused the board to crash, but they came out with a fix pretty quickly for it. I've also seen the cascade ports on a PM5D go bad as well which is a really bad thing when you are running a 5D with the DSP.

The venue has screwed me more times than I can count. The worst were the bugs that caused the pad state to be recalled indifferent- and it would show the correct setting on the screen. Having a major mic off by 20dB in a show sucks. And that just adds to all the other things I dislike about that board...

-Ben

[ray_subsonic]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Yamaha consoles I find are generally amazingly stable.

Yup. They're fairly bullet proof. I prefer Yamaha Digital Consoles for corporate, when I have time to go through and find all the nasty surprises waiting for me to edit out .. .. And to the people who think they sound crap, try clocking them externally (even just an Aaardvark will do fine.) .. Makes quite a difference.

Conversely the only Digital Desk I'd be happy to see on a Rider for a Festival or a Walk-Up would be an AVID or a Digico SD. To their credit, AVID made File Management a No-Brainer in all the VENUE consoles.

[Jim Williams]

I can't imagine recording through a live Yammy console. What a filter! I'm still a bit suprized they were so popular. I rebuilt all of the PM4k's for MGM Grand casino in Vegas, they love them but I still think they sound like crap.

I'll take a reworked live soundcraft Europa any day. I can record good sounding tracks through those.

[Snap]

Absolutely. I've never did a satisfying show with a PM4000. I never liked any analog Yamaha I've used in the past. They sound so clinic and sterile to my ears. Most folks went nuts about them and the XL4 too. I preferred a simpler Europa or a Venue every time. Here in Europe Soundcrafts were all over the place about 20 years ago when I jumped into this. There were also some Midas and Yamahas and other less common stuff for live sound. The soundcraft popularity progressively decayed along the years as the Huge Yamahas and the flashing looking Midas took over the place. Then the digitals killed them all... I developed a love for the old analog Souncraft consoles because they sound quite neutral and good, they are simple and are rock solid for touring. I preferred the ugly, humble and spartan soundcrafts 15 years ago and I still prefer them today. Even the budget ones. Any day.

[jasonraboin]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I can't imagine recording through a live Yammy console. What a filter! I'm still a bit suprized they were so popular. I rebuilt all of the PM4k's for MGM Grand casino in Vegas, they love them but I still think they sound like crap.

I'll take a reworked live soundcraft Europa any day. I can record good sounding tracks through those.

Have you tried a PM5000? I agree that the 4K sucks, but the 5K is a pretty great sounding console.

The Soundcraft Series 5 is another great analog console that never caught on. I prefer it to a Europa.

[Jim Williams]

No 5k yet but I love the Soundcraft 8000 too. I rebuild those for studio use as they have 4 band parametric EQ's and 8 aux sends. Loaded with BurrBrown OPA1612 opamps, they are a real punchy rock mixer when all the coupling caps are removed, DC to 200k hz = clear sound. Also built like a tank too.

The Yammy's have those hybrid stages, sum amps, mic preamps, etc. I did replace everything around them but those mic pre's sound like ass and there's nothing one can do for them.

Anyone ever use an old Jim Gamble desk with those servo-ed quad opamps everywhere? Nice low end there.

[ray_subsonic]

Originally Posted by jasonraboin

The Soundcraft Series 5 is another great analog console.

Agreed.

[absoluteenergy]

Originally Posted by Nathanael PCB

As long as the L'Acoustics stays in it doesn't really matter what console you use.

the higher quality the loud speaker, the more of a window it can give to the flaws in your signal chain.

beringher still sounds like beringher through kudo, but perhaps its a bit more forgiving because its loud and sparkly

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by AlexK

Depends on the system/venue. I've heard some superb sounding larger PA, but most of the time, you're right it can sound a bit mushy, especially all this line-array stuff (although I've also heard some great LAs).

That's because most line arrays (sold as line arrays) aren't actually true line array. Line Array is an acoustic system, and can be found in proper line arrays such as l'Acoustic, Martin, d&B, Meyer etc. Because of the way the system works, it is practical to mount the cabinets horizontally and fly them in a curve.

Unfortunately, this has led to many other companies offering older point source designs in line array type cabinets, so you can hang them sideways and fly them in a curve to look like line array. They don't actually take on the properties of line array, they just look like it. And end up sounding like badly setup line array. Because essentially, that's all it is.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by ray_subsonic

Conversely the only Digital Desk I'd be happy to see on a Rider for a Festival or a Walk-Up would be an AVID or a Digico SD. To their credit, AVID made File Management a No-Brainer in all the VENUE consoles.

what are you on about? What you surely mean is, they're the 2 you've heard about in TPI?

Digico D5 is not an SD but it's better than an SD8. Its just bigger and heavier. Not a problem if youre the engineer, only if you're a local.

Yamaha M7 and PM5 are both fine, they don't sound great but functionality is good and they are cheap to hire. I've worked more than enough great sounding shows with yamaha digitals because the engineer is capable of doing their job not just capable of wittering on about how they have the wrong desk.

Midas Pro6 is better than venue or Digico SD. It's the best digital board out there. Its sound is miles ahead of anything else and its really simple to use.

Sound craft vi6 is also a good desk that sounds good and is simple to use. Unfortunately a bit overpriced for what it does.



So how mant festival riders have you actually submitted?

All the above desks are of more than high enough a standard to be of use to the festival Market. Like anything else, digital desks are all different and the most important question is what works for you. I would be happy enough to wee any of them on a festival job, but the venue, pro6 and pm5 would be my favourites just because I like how they're laid out. Doesn't mean Ive never hired an sd8 and wouldn't again.

In answer to the OP- it's nothing to do with what board you use. The mic placement, foldback, stage volume, Etc will always be far bigger factors. If I was recording I would probably use a Midas Pro6 or a Digico SD7 with the TLA preamps. But Midas h3000, vi6, profile etc would all be peetty much just as good.

If you like the board and find it easier to get a good mix then that is the best board for you. Your collaboration with the desk will get you far closer to the sound you want than an amount of circuitry. In a live situation where things change by the second and you cannot do another pass, it's most important to be on the desk that you love using and are best at using. For this reason, whilst I love all sorts of desks, my favourite board for mixing rock n roll is the digi venue simply because I have the most fun. As soon as it comes to running the master board or doing an OB or whatever I'm all about the pro6 because I don't get te same creative vibe but it sounds way better.

[ChrisJohnsonUK]

This is an interesting thread.

I'm primarily a live sound engineer, and i predominantly work on Arena or bigger shows, including festivals and multi-band events both here (the UK for me) and overseas.

So suffice to say i have received a fair share of riders, and submitted many of my own.

There are a few things i have learnt along the way:
First, its the spongey grey matter between the ears of the engineer that makes shows sound great, never the gear. Gear has the ability to limit the capabilities of an engineer, but it never adds to them!
Bad engineers make good gear sound bad, Good engineers make average gear sound surprisingly good. Good gear never improves the mixing chops of a bad engineer

Secondly, live sound is about compromises. For me, these compromises make it fun and challenging - for others, not so much . What this means though, is that utility often matters just as much as sound quality. I'd rather have an M7 than a Midas XL3 if i have no soundcheck on a 30 minute festival set. I wont even have all the outboard dialed in until the end of the set! The M7 allows me to achieve a better sound in those circumstances...

However, in my opinion i think the best sounding (preamp quality, mix engine processing quality) digital consoles at the moment are the Soundcraft/Studer, Midas Pro/XL8 and Digico SD series. These are closely followed by consoles like the Avid Venue and Yamaha PM5, and then consoles like the M7, LS9, etc.. lag behind a bit. However, Venues, Yamahas and the rest have their place, and there are a lot more of them out there than Digico/Midas/Soundcraft/Studer, so it just goes to show that they have the right balance of performance and price for their markets.

I would say though, most of the sound quality in a live show comes from everything else other than the consoles. PA systems and Mic packages make a much greater difference than the console!

[ray_subsonic]

Originally Posted by ChrisJohnsonUK

This is an interesting thread.

Hello Chris. Yes it is an interesting thread .. I've heard Matthias at D&B make mention of you ..

Maybe it's just me, but we all have preferences .. And during daytime at a festival, I'll take a Midas over ANY Digital console .. I've been surprised in the last few years how more guys are jumping back onto analog consoles for certain shows (Bruce Johnston for example). Particularly at festival shows in the US, they'll usually give you the choice of both flavours submixed into an XL88 (Thunder, 8th Day, RAT, etc) which is great.

Sure, there are plenty of Digico's, Midas Pro-6, Vi6, etc in The UK, but everywhere else you go in the world (Europe/ USA/ South America/ Asia/ Australia/ Arab Emirates), your pretty lucky to have either a VENUE, D5 or a PM5 as standard on a walk-up .. And again, maybe it's just my preference, but I'll take the first 2 on most Tours or Shows ..

[ray_subsonic]

Dave ..

You seem to have a need to belittle, invalidate and trump other people's experiences and opinion, while always advancing your own as somehow superior or better. And it's always just arguing about little things .. in thread after thread .. You're always pillocking people. Why? Why always so divisive ?? It gets stale. You could always choose to talk to people in a more respectful way .. It's your choice, mate. I just can't take your last post seriously that's all ..

[ChrisJohnsonUK]

Originally Posted by ray_subsonic

You see, maybe it's just me, but we all have our preferences .. And during daytime at a festival, I'll take a Midas over ANY Digital console .. I've been surprised in the last few years how more guys are jumping back onto analog consoles for certain shows

Agreed, its interesting how it kind of ebbs and flows...

My experience, this side of the world at least, is that there are a lot of analog boards appearing at festivals, but generally for headliners etc... who can have a bit more say with outboard etc.

I'm certainly in favor of analog and love to spec an H3000 whenever i dont need the functionality of digital!

Originally Posted by ray_subsonic

Sure, there are plenty of Digico's, Midas Pro-6, Vi6, etc in The UK, but everywhere else you go in the world (Europe/ USA/ South America/ Asia/ Australia/ Arab Emirates), your pretty lucky to have either a VENUE, D5 or a PM5 as standard on a walk-up .. And again, maybe it's just my preference, but I'll take the first 2 on most Tours or Shows ..

Completely agree. My preference shifts depending on the work. For complex shows, i love the digicos because they have massive flexibility with their layout and macro functions. If i'm doing a straight band gig, then i love the Midas.
I also enjoy using the Venue a lot. I feel it is somewhere between the 2. Powerful automation and a flexible structure (with TDM), but quick as a walk-up which is nice.

i think it is probably fair to say that today, we have finally reached the point where digital is as good quality-wise as analog, and it now becomes mostly about user preference. Thats a nice place to be, because we now have lots of top-end options to choose from which are equally capable of delivering excellent results.

[ray_subsonic]

Originally Posted by ChrisJohnsonUK

My preference shifts depending on the work .. Using the Venue .. it's quick as a walk-up which is nice ...

It is probably fair to say that today, we have finally reached the point where digital is as good quality-wise as analog, and it now becomes mostly about user preference. Thats a nice place to be, because we now have lots of top-end options to choose from which are equally capable of delivering excellent results.

+1 ..

[ray_subsonic]

Originally Posted by Nathanael PCB

These days I am limited mostly to a LS9 which is easy to get going for a typical theatre show with multiple in and outs but then it runs out of gas and is locked out in so many ways. I have had many issues with loading shows on this console. Some times routing settings change from file to file. Weird safe mode settings that no one programmed. No input delay only output delays ..

I've had similar issues over the years loading shows on PM5's, M7's and LS9's .. Funny that .. and Troubling ..

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

The operator makes far more difference.

It's true; for the most part (IMHO) it doesn't matter what gear you have as long as you have your ears and the ability to make it sound representative to what the band sounds like in the studio...

Having a band that can play standing up is also paramount.

[ears2thesky]

If you were using a Venue with plugs and processing (perhaps backing tracks) from the album's Pro Tools sessions, wouldn't that sound most like the record?

I'm not saying the best--just most like the record.

I realize this isn't an analog board, tho.