MS with panning stereo?

[dude2010]

The MS sound is fantastic. But if I want the panning effect, of a car passing by from left to right etc. I really do not see the possibility in MS - or am I missing something? Doesn't it give the "stereo effect" in a dual mono kinda way?

MS would be perfect for me size wise, it would fit in a zeppeliner and can easily go in the field.

XY is a location mess for me. How do I fix this panning stereo problem?

[Rolo 46]

Originally Posted by dude2010

The MS sound is fantastic. But if I want the panning effect, of a car passing by from left to right etc. I really do not see the possibility in MS - or am I missing something? Doesn't it give the "stereo effect" in a dual mono kinda way?

MS would be perfect for me size wise, it would fit in a zeppeliner and can easily go in the field.

XY is a location mess for me. How do I fix this panning stereo problem?

MS Panning in stereo was only a problem in Dolby pro Logic with its phase issues.
Technology should have moved on.

[2pulse]

Originally Posted by dude2010

The MS sound is fantastic. But if I want the panning effect, of a car passing by from left to right etc. I really do not see the possibility in MS - or am I missing something? Doesn't it give the "stereo effect" in a dual mono kinda way?

MS would be perfect for me size wise, it would fit in a zeppeliner and can easily go in the field.

XY is a location mess for me. How do I fix this panning stereo problem?

A car driving past an MS pair pointed perpendicular to the road will give you the "woosh" from one speaker to the other, just like with XY. If you're asking how to auto-pan a stationary source that was recorded in M/S, it's easiest to send the MS trio to a stereo bus and turn the panner there.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by dude2010

MS would be perfect for me size wise, it would fit in a zeppeliner and can easily go in the field.

Pearl makes some nice MS mics that'll easily fit in a zep. I use an MS8CL.

[OzGizmo]

I personally HATE stereo with MS.....

But love XY stereo, have a look at the Rode NT4 which fits nicely into the Rode Blimp....
Rode Blimp & NT4 microphone - RodeBlimp & NT-4 - YouTube

[Rob Murray]

As said above... MS is pretty ideal for the car drive by, point at the road and wait.

[renec]

alternatively, record in mono - track the vehicle with the mic as it passes, and pan in post to picture.

[panatrope]

Originally Posted by renec

alternatively, record in mono - track the vehicle with the mic as it passes, and pan in post to picture.

The beauty of M-S - the M is already the mono. Add as much of the S as as you need for spread. Pan with your normal stereo panning technique.

[Jaymz]

Originally Posted by panatrope

The beauty of M-S - the M is already the mono. Add as much of the S as as you need for spread. Pan with your normal stereo panning technique.

He's talking about following the car as it passes which isn't ideal with a stereo setup because the image would shift.

I was on a recording expedition last year where we did both simultaneously. Vehicles were driving past a stationary MKH8040/30 MS setup and being tracked by 416 beside it. So both options are there in the final library.

[Ozpeter]

He's talking about following the car as it passes which isn't ideal with a stereo setup because the image would shift.

Yes but... assuming it's not a one-chance-only thing, you can do both techniques with the one mic. Take one, keep the mic steady. Take two, follow the car, and in post-production use only the signal from the centre mic.

(Though when it comes down to it, yes, you could do much the same with any stereo mic - but at least in theory having the car on-axis to the mid mic when panning should give better results than with an XY pair - but is anyone going to say "wow, I can hear that car is really on axis!"?? We spend much time getting angels to dance on pinheads...)

I might as well throw in this MS ambient recording I just did to illustrate the qualities of the Zoom H2N. All sorts of things (mainly dogs) running across and around the soundfield with the mic held more or less steady. Quite 'binaural' sounding in headphones.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/...the%20dogs.mp3

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

Yes but... assuming it's not a one-chance-only thing, you can do both techniques with the one mic. Take one, keep the mic steady. Take two, follow the car, and in post-production use only the signal from the centre mic.

(Though when it comes down to it, yes, you could do much the same with any stereo mic - but at least in theory having the car on-axis to the mid mic when panning should give better results than with an XY pair - but is anyone going to say "wow, I can hear that car is really on axis!"?? We spend much time getting angels to dance on pinheads...)

I might as well throw in this MS ambient recording I just did to illustrate the qualities of the Zoom H2N. All sorts of things (mainly dogs) running across and around the soundfield with the mic held more or less steady. Quite 'binaural' sounding in headphones.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/...the%20dogs.mp3

NO! Not another H2N thread! LOL

[dude2010]

WTF!! GS didn't advise me of all these fine post ¶?™?£™¶™[¶[] !!!
Thank you so much! Will Answer right away.

[dude2010]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

Yes but... assuming it's not a one-chance-only thing, you can do both techniques with the one mic. Take one, keep the mic steady. Take two, follow the car, and in post-production use only the signal from the centre mic.

(Though when it comes down to it, yes, you could do much the same with any stereo mic - but at least in theory having the car on-axis to the mid mic when panning should give better results than with an XY pair - but is anyone going to say "wow, I can hear that car is really on axis!"?? We spend much time getting angels to dance on pinheads...)

I might as well throw in this MS ambient recording I just did to illustrate the qualities of the Zoom H2N. All sorts of things (mainly dogs) running across and around the soundfield with the mic held more or less steady. Quite 'binaural' sounding in headphones.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/...the%20dogs.mp3

MS with the Zoom? What mics? The ones on, is XY..?
But WHAT a recording!! How in the world did you get it, that god damn crisp?? I think it sounds fantastic! If you care to reveal what you did post wise, please spill it!!

I shot some MS today of a train (first ever, with Tascam HD-P2, Sennheiser MKH 60 and AKG's 1700$ figure of eight. And that does not NEARLY get close to yours! Being a quite (more) expensive setup.
Well here is the original file, feel free to **** it up, and post it back up, so we can see what CAN be done postwise - and then elaborate on it, for everyone to learn! (don't worry it's my dropbox making that shady link)
Dropbox - Take24.wav - Simplify your life

[dude2010]

What is the best, or is there different MS mic alignments?
My recording the S is 3 inch. back, from the front of the M.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by dude2010

What is the best, or is there different MS mic alignments?
My recording the S is 3 inch. back, from the front of the M.

The M and S capsules should be as close as possible - ideally directly one above the other.

The closer the better, the further apart they are the more problems you will have.

[Ozpeter]

MS with the Zoom? What mics? The ones on, is XY..?
But WHAT a recording!! How in the world did you get it, that god damn crisp?? I think it sounds fantastic! If you care to reveal what you did post wise, please spill it!!

I did nothing in post apart from normalisation (which wasn't really required), and I used Voxengo MSED to convert the original 'raw' recording from MS to XY, using I think equal amounts of mid and side. The point of the recording was to show what the H2N can do more or less out of the box.

The new H2N has five capsules (three for MS and two for XY) - it doesn't use a real fig of 8 mic but from the little I can see through the grille, the capsules have been mounted in two stacks (MS, and XY) for as good a phase coherent arrangement as they were able to achieve (picking up on John's advise above).

Considering this device is a mere $199 street price, you can't complain at the results vs cost.

I'll have a look at your posted sample later.

NO! Not another H2N thread! LOL

Well, let's pretend I never mentioned it...

[dude2010]

Originally Posted by John Willett

The M and S capsules should be as close as possible - ideally directly one above the other.

The closer the better, the further apart they are the more problems you will have.

But every.. EVERY picture you see of a rig, the S mic is always a little behind??
I hear what you say, but still!!

Here it can't get any further back!

[dude2010]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

I did nothing in post apart from normalisation (which wasn't really required), and I used Voxengo MSED to convert the original 'raw' recording fr...

Well, let's pretend I never mentioned it...

Impressive! And no noise reduction at all?

Mine has ALOT more ground noise!

[boojum]

It is the mic diaphragms which must be aligned, not the mic bodies.

[dude2010]

And for sennheiser, it is aligned with the red contacts or? I thought at that pictured MKH 60, diaphragm was placed at the end, the rest is just tubing, to phase out what comes from the back!?

[Matti]

The tubing is for the most part before the capsule in an interference tube mic.
In the pic. the place of the capsule is marked as 2. You can see the principle of the mic in the pic. -sounds from side travel longer and phase out, but this works only for frequencies shorter than the tube, obviously

Matti

[Ozpeter]

Impressive! And no noise reduction at all?

No, no noise reduction.

[dude2010]

Ok... how did it get that dynamic then? it's nowhere near clipping, when you slam the door - but still there is lot of ambient sounds. If I tried that with my rig, it would be silence.. SLAAAM or Ambience (and noise) and OOOOVERSTEAR..

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by dude2010

Ok... how did it get that dynamic then? it's nowhere near clipping, when you slam the door - but still there is lot of ambient sounds. If I tried that with my rig, it would be silence.. SLAAAM or Ambience (and noise) and OOOOVERSTEAR..

just for the record:

loud ambience + loud slam = low dynamic range (maybe achieved via compression or simply the ambience is very loud. but I haven´t heard the recording)

loud slam + low ambience = high dynamic range (between the slam and the ambience)

[Yannick]

Just wanted to support this fact: if MS does not work for you, probably the two capsules are too far apart. Ideally in the plain of the wavefront you want to record, the time difference between the two capsules should be zero ! That means they have to be aligned exactly, not 2mm more to the back, and certainly not 2cm.

[dude2010]

Originally Posted by apple-q

just for the record:

loud ambience + loud slam = low dynamic range (maybe achieved via compression or simply the ambience is very loud. but I haven´t heard the recording)

loud slam + low ambience = high dynamic range (between the slam and the ambience)

Poster of out with the dogs, is here somewhere, but take a listen, it is posted further up! Impressive!