Upright bass, still a PITA

[mtstudios@charter]

Originally Posted by Han

My dear friends and brothers in arms, here I am to tell you that I still think that an upright bass is a pain in the ass.

Recording it in a booth is no problem at all, since the instrument is big, one needs to put a decent microphone at some distance.

But (jazz)bands don't want that and I can understand it. I was recording a really nice old style band this week and I've put a MXL V77S in the bridge wrapped in foam, the capule at 1.5>2" from the wood. And still much too much bleed from those freaking horns, despite of a gobo.

Luckily I,ve put a mic for the guy's small bass amp (he has a pickup) and I'm afraid I'll end up with using this signal which is almost free from bleed, but also free from 'wood'.

The sound I'm after is the sound of the beginning of 'Cold, Cold Heart' by Norah Jones.

I'm thinking of buying a really good pickup for upright, what would you guys advise me, Underwood, Fishman or what else?

Money is not the most important matter.

Thanks very much!

I have had real good luck with a SM7, aimed away from F hole about 8 to 12' back.
Experimenting with bridge vs. neck positioning. SM7 has the ability to keep out extraneous noise, without loosing sought after freq. I picked this up from Allen Sides at Oceanway. One of the best Stand Up Bass sounds I ever heard. That is how he did it.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[drundall]

Originally Posted by mtstudi@pacbell

I have had real good luck with a SM7, aimed away from F hole about 8 to 12' back.
Experimenting with bridge vs. neck positioning. SM7 has the ability to keep out extraneous noise, without loosing sought after freq. I picked this up from Allen Sides at Oceanway. One of the best Stand Up Bass sounds I ever heard. That is how he did it.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

Wow, very cool info, thanks.

I've been lucky enough that I was overdubbing standup and didn't have to contend with the bleed problem. I've heard that many people use a blend of pickup and amp to get the tone/bleed ratio happening.

[Beauarts]

I used to use a 57 on the upper bout near the strings, not the f hole. Now i use my u48 or 221b straight on in the middle of the instrument inbetween the bridge and end of the fingerboard 4-6 inches away. That's for pitz and that's about as loud with a good strong string attack as you'll get from the instrument.

Now if your player is used to playing with the amp up and plays very lightly you just ain't gonna get much acoustic sound, especially with everyone else wailing away. if he wants to sound like Paul Chambers, he'd better play like paul chambers. These wimpy bass players today ...

[Han]

Originally Posted by mtstudi@pacbell

I have had real good luck with a SM7, aimed away from F hole about 8 to 12' back.
Experimenting with bridge vs. neck positioning. SM7 has the ability to keep out extraneous noise, without loosing sought after freq. I picked this up from Allen Sides at Oceanway. One of the best Stand Up Bass sounds I ever heard. That is how he did it.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

Thanks, I've done lots of experimenting with lots of mics. An old friend of mine comes to rehearse every now and then and he's an upright player. So I can do lots of experimenting and when you put mics wrapped in foam into the bridge you will be astonished bij the (bad) results that some very fine mics will give in this application. I've found out that the Beyer M88 is quite good for example, the MD421 not, in this application that is.

Recording the upright with a decent LDC like the Neumann M49 at some distance is no problem at all. The problem is that bands like to play together in one (big) room, so you can only mic the bas close, as close as possible, which will give you lots of proximity boom and still too much bleed.

So that leaves but one possibility, close micing and a pickup for adding extra tone. And I wonder what's the best and most natural sounding pickup.

Peace, Han

[Way Of The Heart]

Originally Posted by Han

I'm thinking of buying a really good pickup for upright, what would you guys advise me, Underwood, Fishman or what else?

Money is not the most important matter.

Thanks very much!

Hey brother Han...

Pickup for what? Recording or live?

I spent alot of hours setting up uprights for pickups and have experimented with every 'type' available. I have had the best results (as most players) with a combination of sorts.

So...


For the starters there are 2 'excellent' choices to start with...
And sort of the creme de le creme.

1. David Gage's 'The Realist'
This pickup is outstanding on most basses (if you can actually say a pickup is outstanding). It has warmth and punch. Lodged between the bridge feet and the body, it pickups alot of 'woodiness'. And it would be 'bleed' free.

Great first place to start IMO.

2. AMT Bass condenser microphone systems ...
Expensive....and nice.....and....Expensive

There are a ton of mid-level and low level piezo types that I would avoid like the plague. The K&K brands are rebranded low-quality IMO. Fishman?...Not in my opinion.

I have a custom made prototype magnetic pickup that was made for me by Don Lace (Lace pickups)...It is crude but it sounds fantastic if you are using steel strings. It has a lot of 'meat' and can be complimented with a mic.
I havn't used it in a couple of years and I would be happy to send it to you to use. Just need some velcro for the end of the fretboard.

Feel free to PM and I will see if I can find it...

Either way...check out the Realist. It will not dissapoint. It is a little dark but it has some nice thickness.

Much Respect,

[Han]

Originally Posted by Beauarts

I used to use a 57 on the upper bout near the strings, not the f hole. Now i use my u48 or 221b straight on in the middle of the instrument inbetween the bridge and end of the fingerboard 4-6 inches away. That's for pitz and that's about as loud with a good strong string attack as you'll get from the instrument.

Now if your player is used to playing with the amp up and plays very lightly you just ain't gonna get much acoustic sound, especially with everyone else wailing away. if he wants to sound like Paul Chambers, he'd better play like paul chambers. These wimpy bass players today ...

Good point! Players playing softer because of the amp, hadn't thought of that one! Thanks.

Next time the amp goes less loud.

[Han]

@ Rodney: thanks bro, it's for recording only, lots of old style jazzbands lately and coming.

David Gage's 'The Realist' you say. http://www.davidgage.com/catalog/pro...products_id=28

That one? How is it for mounting on the instrument, can it simply be put on and off?

Very interesting advice Rodney, thanks!

[henryrobinett]

I've just forgotten the bleed. But I used three sources last time: Peluso 22 47 at the bridge Peluso 22 251 at the fingerboard modway on the neck and a Milennia TD-1. Sounded real good. There was more TD-1 than there wasn't but you still could mix to taste and get plenty of wood. And then the bassist spilled coffee on my computer. But before that I've used an ATM25 stuffed in foam in the bridge with the TD-1 and it works pretty well.

[Way Of The Heart]

Originally Posted by Han

@ Rodney: thanks bro, it's for recording only, lots of old style jazzbands lately and coming.

David Gage's 'The Realist' you say. http://www.davidgage.com/catalog/pro...products_id=28

That one? How is it for mounting on the instrument, can it simply be put on and off?

Very interesting advice Rodney, thanks!

Yes bro..that is the one.

Put on and off 'simply'...? Yes..at least for an upright although this pickup sits under the foot of the bridge.... So you need enough tension off the strings to lift the bridge foot up. The pickup is slighly 'moldable'...and contours itself to the particular bridge foot / body of the bass it is on. In my experience it is best if you find the sweet spot (even 1/4" can be big on an upright) and leave it.

BTW...I found this protype custom jobber. Don had wound me the coil and put it in a crude shell...I wired it to output jack and we used neodynium magnets that are moveable...(and strong!!)

IMO..this is a very useful pickup...albiet magnetic (where you would get the clean low end from to mix / blend with your mic source).

Much Respect,

[Way Of The Heart]

An another...

I used pickguard material...cut and heated up to create the black backing here.
Dang...I am missing my ol' upright now.... (not really..but it sure looked good in the corner of the house!!)

Respect,

[Han]

I've been thinking of buying a nice upright bass and put a really good sounding pickup on it. That will solve a huge problem I hope.

Recording acoustic bands isn't that hard you know, but it's always the upright that makes an extra grey hair.

I have a 12 m² booth, but they almost refuse to do it in there.

Thanks for replying everybody!

[timmcallister]

I am following this topic with great interest.

My band plays 50's Blues/R&B and we use an upright player. Last time we recorded, we put the upright player in a different room, and frankly, hated it. We're getting ready to record again, and WE WILL all record in the same room, come hell or high water.

My upright player is a monster player, he's got a great rockabilliy type slap when he swings and just hammers his upright. His bass also has some history, it was the one used for years in the Mickey Mouse club (funny but serious).

I've been pouring over peoples ideas on how to capture the wood, without too much bleed.

BTW: I recently ordered three chandler germanium pre amps. Two for the drums and one for the bass. I want to see if this thing can help.

Anyway - keep the conversation going!!!!

[wwittman]

you're right.

they are an incredible pain in the ass.. and lamost never sound good on record, for that reason.

they were never meant to be LOUD, so with loud neighbours they always suffer.

[heavyd]

not to toot my horn, but i live, play/work and record a lot in NYC (drummer) with some of the best bass players in town.

In my small project studio where we all play together, no phones, baffles only,
i have had VERY good results placing a LDC (i use a Neumann TLM 193, but have also gotten a great sound with something as inexpensive as a Studio Projects C1) 3-5 inches from the center of the bridge. This has always given me a great combination of body, string and finger sound.

In my experience, the closer you put the mic to the F hole the more body/bass sound you get, but you tend to lose some of the attack/articulation, and can end up with a woofy sounding bass when listening back within the context of the music.

As far as baffling for the bass, i use a V shaped wedge built from plywood and carpeted. I use an amp placed outside the wedge, turned up only loud enough for the other musicians to hear the bass, and i favor pointing it more towards the drums.

As far as bleed, i really don't worry about it. When i solo the bass track, i clearly have a workable track for any EQ'ing i may do, but i usually don't do any.

As i'm sure you know, some of the greatest sounding Jazz records were recorded without isolation.

A direct line signal can also be "blended" with the mic, but again, i usually get a good enough sound that i don't use it.

Wrapping a mic in foam and using a rubber band to attach it to the bridge is also something that i've seen some top jazz engineers here in the city do, but usually it's in an iso booth, and they'll also have a great LDC at least a foot away from the bass, and sometimes a third mic further up the fingerboard, and close to the strings.

Micing the bass amp isn't something i would try because even when players get a great "woody" bass sound out of an amp, it still will never sound as good as the bass itself. Maybe a blend of those two? I don't know.

I hear more and more people talking about their desire to record in the same room, and some of the best engineers in the city; James Farber, Joe Ferla, Jim Anderson, Jon Rosenberg, Katsuhiko Naito and the late great David Baker did, and do it that way.



The benefits of playing and interacting together, as in a live performance, without long distances and sterile feeling iso booths separating us, will often help to create great music; music that will, in my humble opinion, always be more important than making sure we're recording "perfect" sounds.

I'm sorry, but due to my low level computer skills, i don't know how to post an mp3
example for you.

[Han]

Originally Posted by timmcallister

I am following this topic with great interest.

My band plays 50's Blues/R&B and we use an upright player. Last time we recorded, we put the upright player in a different room, and frankly, hated it. We're getting ready to record again, and WE WILL all record in the same room, come hell or high water.

My upright player is a monster player, he's got a great rockabilliy type slap when he swings and just hammers his upright. His bass also has some history, it was the one used for years in the Mickey Mouse club (funny but serious).

I've been pouring over peoples ideas on how to capture the wood, without too much bleed.

BTW: I recently ordered three chandler germanium pre amps. Two for the drums and one for the bass. I want to see if this thing can help.

Anyway - keep the conversation going!!!!

Tim, that's exactly the point, nothing feels beter than playing together.

Here's a part of a post I've put a while back on homerecording:

Micing an upright bass is difficult, I’ve been recording many acoustic (jazz)bands and the upright can be a pain in the ass. I do have a 12 m2 vocal booth and if you can manage the bassplayer to play separated from the rest of the band, all you have to do is put a nice mic with a wide cardioid pattern in front of the instrument and you’re done.

But people hate that and prefer to play with the band in one room. Do you know Norah Jones’ first album ‘Come away with me’? The third song begins with an upright bass and that’s the sound I like, as if the man is standing there in front of you.

Lately I’ve been recording with an acoustic band, guitars, flutes, violin, percussion, bagpipes (loud!!) and upright, a female and very stubbern player. I’ve put a Neumann M149 in fig of 8 in front of the bass and put a couple of gobo’s around her. Asked her to keep a distance of one foot, which she thinks is a yard or so. I’ve asked her five or six times and that must be enough I think.

Yesterday she came and booked a new session with another (klezmer) band and I was thinking about how to record her this time. A mic wrapped in foam seems to be the only way to avoid the bleed of the other instruments to go excessive.

A friend of mine comes to rehearse every now and then with his dixieland band and he’s the upright bassplayer, so I went to the studio and experimented with a number of mics wrapped in foam in the bridge of the bass. All mics were wrapped in foam and pointing upwards. Here are the results:

Beyer M88, very balanced sound, nice low end, much detail and a reasonable amount of bleed from the horns, banjo, and drums. And this bleed is sounding nice so that can’t be a big problem

Beyer M69, this prooves that the M88 is a much better mic, this mic doesn’t sound as good in this application.

Beyer M201, not good, a great mic but not in this application, bleed doesn’t sound nice and so does the upright.

Beyer M260 ribbon, a nice and balanced sound, less low end and the bleed sounds a little nasal, but a very usable sound.

Shure SM57, in one word: ugly.

Sennheiser MD421, boomy sound with lots of peaks and lots of bleed, unusable.

Sennheiser MD441, a great mic, but sucks on this application, even worse than the 421.

AKG D90S, el cheapo dynamic mic, but not bad at all, even better than the Beyer M69.

Audio Technica AT 832, one of the cheapest dynamic mics from the eighties, $25 mic and this mic beats the MD421 and 441. A decent sound, pretty balanced, lots of lows and a reasonable amount of bleed. Funny that the cheapest mic sounds better than the most expensive dynamic.

MXL V77S, a side adressed mic which is a huge benefit, fits very good in the foam. I pointed the front in an angle towards the F-hole on the G string side. A very good and balanced sound, lots of low end so you beter use a high pass filter. Bleed sounds wonderful, so this is the mic I’m going to use for the lady upright player.

MXL V69M, a very good sound too, but the bleed sounds more colored than the 77 and this mic can get quite warm so I presume that wrapped in foam it will get hot.

Studio Projects B1, not bad at all, quite good actually.

Behringer ECM8000, this is a noisy omni el cheapo mic and I've put it wrapped in foam under the tailpiece. The sound will surprise you, the bleed is a little more.

The Neumann M149 is too big, so it doesn’t fit in the bridge.

Cheers, Han
__________________

[orville]

A simple but maybe good suggestion is to try miking the bass off the floor. i.e. angle an ldc in fig 8 or card. to capture the reflection of the upright off the floor. Wooden floor is great, if yours is cushioned use baffles.

Should work better in terms of bleed too.

Just my 27pence.

[DigitMus]

If you HAVE to close mic an upright (e.g. for more isolation in a live tracking situation), a DPA 4060 can be just the ticket. You can get a clip on mount, or make your own (some double-stick tape on a split piece of wine cork works for me). The f-hole or bridge are not often the optimal placement. Try a bunch of different positions and don't be afraid to EQ, they take EQ quite well.

Scott

[TRW]

I feel your pain - just mixed a trio with an upright that I tracked a month ago and no-matter what I did, without decent gobo's and natural isolation (i.e distance) I/you are fukked with a drummer nearby. Without a bass-player that can create some VOLUME old-skool without an amp you're double fukked.

I'm no great tracking engineer but upright is always my achilles heel. Most jazz guys don't like headphones, prefer no isolation, love to be in close proximity. Thats great I'm all for vibe over isolation but most bass-players I record can't produce enough volume to be heard by all over the kit, hence the need for an amp, which always seem to lack any definition and aren't worth micing IMO. They also seem to mess with the overall ambience...

Most DI's sound like shite and cannot be EQ'd to sound halfway real IMO. I've tried some nice ones but can't remember names.

DPA4060 sound lovely when doing an overdub or in iso but they are OMNI and you will be triple fukked if your looking for isolation from a kit in one of them. Although the spill obviously sounds sweet, natural and in-phase like all DPA omni's...so they are a good choice if you can gobo and place the player at a bit of a distance.

Other mics I've tried like U87s, MD421s were horrid too. The off-axis spill in a 421 is about the ugliest thing ever when cymbals and brass are active. However all of these mics record fine upright tones in isolation.

Good luck - if you find the secret let us know...a DPA4021 as its cardiod and small enough to fit right under the bridge, might be worth a try and probably preferrable over a DI.

[Edit] I think that came off as a bit negative - just my experiences with it and it obviously can be done and done extremely well. Its a marvel how the jazz engineers did it on the classic records with limited isolation and mic choice....they knew more than most ever will including me...[/edit]

Tom

[PlugHead]

Tho I never like the sound of pickups as much as a good mic, these seem to be a fave amongst the performing elite:

http://www.schertler.com/

A lot of players like these units, but like everything else, opinions are like bellybuttons...

I've tried tight pattern ribbons (Beyer M500NC, 160 etc) to some extent with fair rejection, but not always the tone I strive for: as mentioned 4060's sound real nice on bass, but bleed is always a factor with them - spill is often fine if you can deal with it. If not, using the pickup is the "save your bacon" factor we all know and love, esp. if it makes the ensemble sound better, and us look good when the mix can come together peacefully!

Best with it!

[Rick Sutton]

I've recorded upright many times in all kinds of situations and the only truism that I've found is there are very few great basses out there. When you do run across a greatbass/great player combo it is an easy instrument to record. That's one of the main reasons that the old jazz albums have great bass recordings.
So many of the instruments are just average and the truly dreadful ones are a nightmare. This doesn't help a lot, but it is a reality that we need to understand. The upright bass is a HUGE instrument that has a lot of wood in it. It is an incredibly expensive beast to build properly. I've recorded probably 100 of them over 35 years. About 4 or 5 stick out as truly wonderful instruments. Maybe another 20 were pretty fair and at least recordable. The other 75 varied from a pain in the butt to better used for firewood.

I've searched and searched for some kind of pickup (I've got the mics covered) that a bass player would allow me to put on his bass and would give me a reasonable sound to combine with the mic. Haven't found it yet. Most require lifting the bridge or similar tactics which is too invasive. If anybody has the answer I'd sure appreciate it!

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by drundall

I've heard that many people use a blend of pickup and amp to get the tone/bleed ratio happening.

A combination is what I usually do, but not with an amp. Been using a combo of pickup and Neumann U48 most recently. Working out well. You can dial out a little top from the mic to help with some bleed issues and use the pickup for presence while still getting nice tone from the old tube mic. Most would never guess you're using a pickup.

[Han]

Hi guys, good thoughts here, but still no holy grail isn't it?

I've been thinking about timmcallister's post which is a very important one:

My band plays 50's Blues/R&B and we use an upright player. Last time we recorded, we put the upright player in a different room, and frankly, hated it. We're getting ready to record again, and WE WILL all record in the same room, come hell or high water.

A well known jazz specialized recording studio in my country uses different rooms for different instruments, the upright always ends up in the booth. The owner of the studio is a very good engineer, no doubt, but he considers himself as an authority.

Bands come to me and complain about it, like Tim says, they hate to play separated and come to me because I dare to track them in one (90m²) room.
That solves their problem, playing is just fun for them again. But it introduces another big problem which they don't realize and don't suffer from.

A year ago a bassplayer made one hell of a dicision, it was a song he had problems with and he decided not to play with the band, but later as an overdub so we could punch in/out and comb tracks.

Now that was absolutely gorgeous, a killer upright sound with two LDC's, one aimed at the bridge from some distance and one aimed at the fingerboard.

I'm still hoping for the holy grail, a pickup that sounds really great would make me lift my hat, bow over and bring me on my knees.

Peace, Han

[borau]

Hi Han,

You say you want a good sounding pickup...
Forget it, there is no such thing.

I would do three things(and have done, with succsess)

1/Move the bass as close as possible to the offending instruments(drums, horns) to make sure the bleed itself is more "useful"/less offending.

2/More gobos, serious amounts, on all sides of the bass.
And then even more.

Those two have made useable results for me in large rooms,with VERY HEAVY jazz bands, micing the bass with one LDC.

However,

3/For even less bleed, use a Beyer M160 (not 260)

You might need too use a bass amp on a very low level, strictly for monitoring purposes, outside of that "box"

I

[seaneldon]

unless the bass has REALLY good electronics, i use a figure of eight ribbon close to the bridge, and a high output condenser slightly above the ribbon, maybe 8 inches further back.

[pgk]

These wimpy bass players today ...

i am of the firm belief that it's all scott La Faro's fault. i love scott's playing, always have. but before him, all bass players had to project. it is the nature of the instrument for crying out loud. hah, listen to "mingus at town hall" sometime. unmiked, fronting a big band. jesu. or milt hinton; give a listen to branford's "trio jeepy' sometime. that is the sound of an acoustic bass. when scott started blowing minds with bill evans and all the bass players started emulating him, natch. and in order to do so they had to lower their action a LOT and play with a much lighter touch. tone and projection then went right out the window. so much so that nobody could hear them anymore. then the amps started coming out, and that was the end of it. most upright players today are damn lazy; it's a lost art, practically. don't believe me? trace it back, pre/post Lafaro and see for yourself.

but golly gee they could sure play fast.....

sorry for the rant! it's a big pet peeve of mine

[henryrobinett]

Yeah, but I think it was more Eddie Gomez with Bill Evans than Scott La Faro. And Ron Carter has to take a lot of the blame. He still probably,. refuses to use a mic. He prefers the pickup. In the late 60s, or whenever he started using them, he loved it because it gave him the freedom to hear himself and to be heard, even while playing with loud drummers like Tony Williams. I think he was one of the first jazz upright pickup guys.

[borau]

Yes,
Bassplayer and acoustic volume is a big deal actually. I have had the luck of seing one or two great old-school bassplayers doing master classes, attended by some of the best bass players today. And the difference in pure SPL and projection is nothing but astonoshing.
I guess in those days, they didn't even use gobos.
And I suspect the drummers where much lighter on the cymbals.

[Way Of The Heart]

http://christianmcbride.com/multi.html

Christian ain't no wimp.

He lives by his Realist and AMT system....
He is one of the most sought after upright bassists (or electric) in the world right now and his tone is magical.

Lot's of info, soundclips and videos on his site.

Christian pays deep respect to his peers (and has his peers respect) he has done alot of work with Ray Brown, Milt Hinton and other greats.

His album 'Gettin to it' was produced by Richard Seidel and Don Sickler..Maybe somoeone here know either of them? (Verve was the label)

That would be some valuable info...but honestly since Christian plays like a flowing stream, it is probably a little easier to capture great tone.

Much Respect,

[pgk]

umm no, scott preceded eddie. and ron carter is not a "soft" player in the usual sense. he did a fascinating interview with joe goldberg in the book "jazz masters of the fifties" where he explained his concept of bass tone and projection that hit me between the eyes like a thunderbolt. i read that when i was a kid (i'm almost 50 now). in it he asked you to visualize the omnidirectional pattern of a string once it is set into motion. then he explained about the dynamic extremes of the string; after a certain amplitude the string's vibrations start to cancel out and the sound gets smaller (think early johnny guitar watson). he was (and still is) all about getting the maximum tone and projection with the least amount of effort. with miles he had such a gorgeous tone, and let's not forget that quintet was loud! bill's band was one of the quietest trios ever, to this day.

and another thing about "way back when"; most great bands always played to the volume of the bassist, especially if a singer was on the date. singer's gotta hear the changes, and most of 'em key on the bass player.