Upright bass, still a PITA

[ajfarber]

Thanks Rob and Henry,

Good talking with you cats.

-Andy

[henryrobinett]

Ditto to all of that. Andy called me too! We'd been trying to hook up anyway over the last little while, so it was good to finally get a chance to yak. He's a great guy. It doesn't bother me at all that he's an asshole. JUST KIDDING!!!

[Joe Ferla]

Andy, Henry, Rob, and everyone else here,

This is a great forum and I'm happy to be part of it. This has kinda been fun over the last few days. I must admit Andy you got dander up but it really is all in fun. I hope I didn't offend you or anyone here. I know I do come off cocky at times but it really is that I'm very confident about what I do. I also know that it's sometimes hard to convey our intentions in writing. Just to clarify, I am an old school guy. The way I approach sessions is to go out into the room and hear the musicians and their instruments before I attempt to get a sound on them. I then probably go back and forth between the studio and control room moving microphones a number of times so that I capture the sound acurately without using EQ or processing. I'm a purist at heart. Also the studios that I use have great sounding iso booths that are large enough that I can put up room mics if I choose. In the mix I then blend the instruments and use reverbs to tie it all together. When I'm done it sounds like everyone played together only with a lot of detail on each instrument. I love hearing the nuance....it makes the listener feel like the musicians are right in front of them. That's my process. But I never get in the way of the perfomance or the music. If a musician really doesn't want to be in a booth I would never force him to do so. I hope I didn't give anyone that impression. The reason I'm here is to share my knoweldge with you guys and have some fun. I feel proud to be in this business for the last 38 years and lucky that I still get calls for sessions. I feel I need to give something back to the music community because I've gotten so much from it. Last summer I did some teaching (master classes) at the Banff Center in Canada with Dave Douglas. It was one of the highlights of my career. It was so rewarding to work with those students. I'm going back in May and can't wait. So here I am with you guys, eager to participate and share. Andy I accept you're apology. Thanks. And to answer you, yes I do think the bass sounds I get are better than those you are referring to and I'm not saying those bass sounds are bad. I hope again I'm not coming off the wrong way here. Henry and Rob, thanks for your posts, I appreciate it. To answer one more question about gut stringed basses, I approach recording them the same way....listen to the instrument first and then match that sound in the control room.
Anyway lets do this some more guys.

Thanks,

Joe

[Remoteness]

I'm so happy everything is everything again.

[namsabnek]

I've had dozens of PITA's recording upright bass players until last week when I had the good fortune to record Gene Perla. He controlled perfectly the low end coming out of the instrument. I ended up using an oktava with the lomo head about 12 inches off the instrument between the f hole and the bridge. Although I could have put the mic pretty much anywhere and it would have sounded fine. Getting that nice tight low end out of the instrument mixed with "just the right of growl" is in the hands of the bassist. BTW, he was using a borrowed "nothing special" upright,
Ken

[bongo]

Originally Posted by namsabnek

I've had dozens of PITA's recording upright bass players until last week when I had the good fortune to record Gene Perla.

Gene's a great guy. He calls me every year on my birthday. I'm not sure why, or how he even knows it's my birthday!

[thermos]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Right, AFTER.
I corrected the earlier post.

Sure I've got records and CDs recorded after 1970. Not many, but some. I hear all (actually some) the latest jazz records on WBGO (Newark NJ) . Most of them don't sound as good as the stuff recorded in the late 50s early 60s.

You've got some records to check out. I think the Brad Meldahu stuff sounds great, (musically awesome as well) as well as the Mark Turner/Kurt Rosenwinkle albums that James Farber did. They all sound great. HUUUUGE bass sounds. And some super inspired writing and playing. Big bass sounds are back. I'm in my late 20s, and all of my peers are playing mostly with gut strings and really getting large sounds out of their instruments. The overly amplified/Ron Carter sound (70s, not 60s) is over.

[Robobo1]

Originally Posted by thermos

I think the Brad Meldahu stuff sounds great, (musically awesome as well)

I get to record Larry Grenadier on Thursday (he's the bassist on those Mehldau recordings you love)! With Joshua Redman and Ali Jackson. Very much looking forward to it!!

Going to have the infamous problem with drum bleed. I plan to use one capsule of an SM69, in figure 8. I'm trying to keep the track count exceptionally low, so one mic will do.

This thread has been very helpful for me in preparing for the gig.

[zaczac]

Wow, cool line up Robobo. I've enjoyed reading this thread too.

[Han]

Well, today I had to record a jazzband and a gospel choir all at once in the 90m² room. Drums, banjo, upright, reeds, Tbone and trumpet, plus 30 people singing including the lead singer.

There are a couple of things that impressed me: the Beyer M88 on lead vocals, in this situation better than a condenser. Maybe the most rejective vocal mic, almost no spill at all. Second, the M201 on banjo, sitting next to the drummer on the drumriser there's hardly any drums to hear on the 201.

But that freaking upright bass keeps to amaze me, every time there's something different going on and each bass/player combination has it's own way and needs it's own typical approach.

This guy is a good player and the bass sounds pretty good, so I was wondering the whole week which mic I'd use, because of the big choir I was out of condensers and I had to make a choice out of dynamics like MD421/441, Beyer M201, M88 or M69, or a couple of other vocal mics. I also have an AKG D202 but I haven't used it so far and I want some experimenting first.

So I did a gamble and put an old AKG D12E in front of the upright. The thing that really impressed me is the rejectivity of this good old mic, that was originally designed for vocals. The bleed from the band and the choir is really little and although one has to cut some low end, the sound is pretty balanced.

Remember this when you have to record an upright and you're out of LDC's:

AKG D12E.

Peace.

[Jimbo]

Second, the M201 on banjo, sitting next to the drummer on the drumriser there's hardly any drums to hear on the 201.

I recently bought an m201 to try on my banjo. Not only does this mic have great off-axis rejection, it is a MONSTER of a banjo mic. Banjos are soft instruments, and the hardness of this mic is a perfect compliment. Lots of attack and just the right amount of grit. It lets the banjo sit perfectly in the mix.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Banjos are soft instruments,

I think you need to insert the word "Some" in front of that statement
Some of my banjos are soft and some are downright loud and obnoxious.....but I love them all!

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

I think you need to insert the word "Some" in front of that statement
Some of my banjos are soft and some are downright loud and obnoxious.....but I love them all!

OK, you got me, "some".....the others are Stellings


Really, though: I mean soft vs hard as describing timber (ala Mike Stavrou: Mixing With Your Mind). I actually have never heard a "hard" sounding banjo.....and I've never heard a "soft" sounding violin/fiddle.

[Han]

I keep telling that Beyer mics are among the most underrated mics. The M201 can be used on almost every application, it's probably the best mic for snare, but it will do very well on kick too and to stay on drums: they're not bad on overheads.

The M88 is IMHO the only mic that can be used as a lead vocalmic in a loud band situation and you can use the vocals in the mix. It will sound almost as good as an airy LDC and the bleed is minimal, but good sounding because of the M88's very nice off axis response.

Not even to mention the Beyer M160 and M260 ribbon mics which I've used yesterday on horns and winds, great sounding microphones and as rejective as most Beyer mics.

Actually you can't go wrong with any Beyer mic, you will always have at least a decent result if not brilliant.

I wonder why the old mics sound so good, my 260's and 201's all have the small Tuchel connector so they must be at least 40 years old. I have four MD421's with small Tuchels and two with XLR (the black ones) and the old 421's sound better on every application.

Same with the good old D12E, IMHO the best kick mic ever, but also good for many other applications, try it on a low tuned floortom and you'll be amazed.

And don't start about the old Neumann's like U47 and M49, why are these mics so brilliant sounding, much better that 'modern' ones?

[mal]

M88's a great mic....have used it as my main kik sound in the studio for years..great live mic as well...
Have also just read some of the earlier posts re Bass & studios....bassists have often felt neglected in recording situations..almost as an afterthought...I think that's why sometimes many of them jump at the chance to be in their own space, with the clarity that can bring..they get treated as a special part of the recording process..granted, sometimes some prefer to be in a main room.and that is ok and manageable with gobos etc, esp with horns..less of an issue if just a piano trio...
But if in a space with eye contact, but acoustically somewhat separate, you can get the mics futher away from the bass, and really get more of the whole instrument's sound....